Army: Nicer drill sergeants more effective (Good God! Alert)

MSNBC ^ | 10/12/06 | AP

[stm]

WASHINGTON - Hollywood may have to tone down its portrayal of the military’s screaming, in-your-face boot camp drill sergeant. In today’s Army, shouting is out and a calmer approach to molding young minds is in, says the head of Pentagon personnel. The Army says it has reduced by nearly 7 percent the number of recruits who wash out in the first six to 12 months of military life.

[Paloma_55]

I could tell some stories as well. Navy Boot for me was pretty easy.

The Company Commander thought he was Steve McQueen from the Sand Pebbles (Wore his hat down and crooked and always had a smoke out of the side of his mouth) and actually did kinda look like him. Fortunately for me, he was more interested in getting us through boot than beating us up... but there were a few washouts that got the boot..literally.

[Obadiah]

Nailed it.

[DesScorp]

I'm gonna be the voice of dissent here (and yes, I'm a vet too...Navy). I think there should be a certain amount of intimidation and screaming and such in the beginning phases of basic. But at a certain point you've gotta recognize that it's time to teach and mold and not just break down, and that doesn't neccessarily require a 24/7 R. Lee Ermey act from Full Metal Jacket. I had two very, very different company commanders. One was an older chief...a short timer that gave the impression he was tired of the grind and wanted out. He was the one that was big not just on screaming, but on sudden violent behavior. He ended up leaving 3 weeks before our company graduated....when another Chief asked him if he was going to extend to see the class through, his answer was "Hell No". Our other CC, on the other hand, was a Puerto Rican PO 1st Class, and while he had his personality quirks (as all people do), this guy was the very model of Navy professionalism, and is the standard I've recognized ever since then. If you screwed up, you got yelled at (but not in some hollywood insane way as the Chief did) and punished physically ("I'm gonna grind your ass, boot"). But he recognized honest effort, and gave attaboys where appropriate. This was not a PC limp wristed new age guy. This was a dusk-to-dawn hard charger who had come from the barrio in the Bronx, and was working towards his degree in what little spare time he had. I just responded a hell of a lot better to him than the Chief who seemed to be a living characature of the savage DI. And no, they weren't playing good cop bad cop. They genuinelly didn't like each other and we knew it. The PO was never, ever disrespectful of the Chief, but you could infer that he didn't approve of his methods. The PO finished our company by himself, and he was quite happy to do it without the Chief.

Bottom line....while we don't want wusses training our kids, at the same time, we should recognize when it's time to "turn it off", so to speak (and I'm sure the good instructors already know this).

[stm]

Bingo.

Bootcamp is also a weeding-out place for people that should not be there. It's a sad fact of life that so much pressure is placed on recruiters to meet goal each month. They get credit even if the recruit washes out. But in the end, everyone loses when they bring in someone that can't hack it just to meet goal.

[Radix]

FRONT LEAN AND REST, PLEASE.

NOW PLEASE GIVE ME INFINITY.

Actually, I thought that the Army had softened up years ago long after I went through it a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

It was not so. I saw videos of what the trainees must endure nowadays, and it ain't easy. Basic Training is much tougher now than when I went through it.

[Al Gator]

Oh, and one more, about today's troops and education:

Myth: The war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.

Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers.

Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better. [McCaffrey]

[dogbyte12]

We had one guy in basic who went berzerk, really quickly. He started smashing his face into a mirror.

One of the good things about it being so hard, is that it does weed out the mentally weak before they get onto a battlefield.

It also gives you a feeling of confidence. You have never experienced anything like that and you survived it. The actual Army itself was easy compared to basic, mainly because you aren't ever really prepared for it.

[angelsonmyside]

Oh his was NOT easy, lol. They pegged him from day 1. They made him Dorm Chief right off the bat which meant every time someone screwed up he got the punishment. Of course he didn't need any help getting into trouble himself but he learned quickly.

One of the funniest stories some of his buddies told me were of his "flying lesson". It seams he forgot to put up his belt one night and his TI caught it. Some of them heard the TI come into the room and saw him pick the bed up with my son in it and they both went sailing. They all said he should have earned some wings that night.

[Gamecock]

I just appreciated knowing, within a week or two, that they didn't want to really kill me.

Ain't that the truth! LOL!

I'll never forget how absolutely weird it was the first time a drill sergeant saluted me.

[Gamecock]

DS Fizer and Noles, B-19-4, Fort Knox.

On day 1 we found a 1/2 empty bottle of beer on top of a wall locker. My buddies asked what we should do about it, I told them no matter what we did with it, we would be doing a lot of push-ups. (My father, CSM Gamecock, prepared me well in what to expect)

[stm]

A kindler, gentler Army does not train you for that. I was an INF PSG (Platoon Sergeant) this last go round. Even before we went to war I already knew who was going to be good in a firefight and who was not. And I was not wrong. The products of our "Army of One" gentler approach did not particularly impress me and some of them downright scared me. Granted there were some really good ones too but they made up less and 50%.

Things are different in the Navy and Air Force, as their enlisted troops (except for SEALs, Corpsman and PJ's) are rarely engaged directly by the enemy. I know there are exceptions. It is essential for the Army and USMC to train their soldiers, male and female, more rigorously. There is no such thing any more as an "in the rear with the gear" soldier anymore. Iraq has already proven that in spades.

[DesScorp]

"You don't train intelligent high school grads who volunteer the same way you train draftees or drop outs given a 'jail or army' option."

Eagle Eye, you nailed it. You don't train an all-volunteer force made up of highly intelligent recruits (many of them eventually bound for college and leadership roles) the same way you train a conscript army made of up mostly society's lower rungs.

Results speak volumes, and I say that today's forces are at least as good, if not better, than any that have come before.

[unspun]

Interesting input. Would you agree then, that a young man (I'll happily leave women out of the question) entering the armed forces should be broken hard? That is the philosophical/psychological reason for tough boot camp tactics, correct?

Is that really true, do you think? Or is the over-the-top intimidation in traditional boot camp more for those who demonstrated they need it?

[fortunecookie]

More effective at what? Not upsetting our young men and women? What a rude awakening they will have should they meet an enemy in combat and politeness isn't extended. What's next? The comfy chair? (she said, shuddering at the thought of recruits skipping hand in hand through a flower filled field, armed with only kindness)

The screaming and yelling is designed to teach the kids to function under stress and pressure.

Exactly.

[Terabitten]

FRONT LEAN AND REST, PLEASE.

That'd be the front LEANING rest.

[Osage Orange]

My pop was a tough....but reasoned man.

[Al Gator]

"You don't train an all-volunteer force made up of highly intelligent recruits (many of them eventually bound for college and leadership roles) the same way you train a conscript army made of up mostly society's lower rungs. "

And which group were from "society's lower rungs"?

Read my other posts about the myths that abound.

[Radix]

"That'd be the front LEANING rest."

Really?

All these years and it turns out that I actually never really did listen to the Drill Sargents.

[stm]

Yes. And there are a lot of kids that really need to be broken hard. The military is about teamwork, regimen, cohesiveness and obedience of superiors, especially under fire. The purpose of bootcamp is to break you down, strip you of your civilian ways of thinking, and then build you back up in a military culture. That's what keeps you alive when bullets with green tracers start coming your way.

[Dead Corpse]

As was my LEO father. As were my DI's at MCRD San Diego. You don't train up tough troops by being nice to them.

BTW: My graphic wasn't meant to be aimed at you. Just wanted it on the thread somewhere... ;-)