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Amish mourn gunman in school rampage (offer heartfelt forgiveness at Roberts funeral)
Yahoo News ^ | October 7, 2006 | MARK SCOLFORO

Posted on 10/07/2006 1:19:17 PM PDT by NYer

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To: blu
Then there's this:

Acts 26: 20 -- "I preach that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."

and this:

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish

This one-sided "forgiveness" is not in our best interest, nor in the best interest of the person who hurt us. It devalues the significance of repentance and robs both the offender and us of the opportunity to grow in Christ.

Scripture does not teach that we need to forgive our enemies. Instead, we should love them and pray for them. Love and forgiveness are not synonymous.

L

61 posted on 10/07/2006 4:20:03 PM PDT by Lurker (islam is not a religion. It's the new face of Fascism in our time. We ignore it at our peril.)
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To: Lizavetta
But we also understand that it's the WARRIORS of our nation, and other nations, that make it possible for the Amish to carry on and be the pacifists they are.

And realize both can co-exist and enrich each other. This is not an either/or situation.

62 posted on 10/07/2006 4:21:00 PM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
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To: radiohead

I've passed many an Amish child pushing one of those along the road.


63 posted on 10/07/2006 4:22:10 PM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
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To: Lurker
I will say this: forgiveness can be a dangerous thing. Many times we urge forgiveness as a way to move along, as a way to get over past experiences, as a way to live lightly in a world without carrying the burdens of the past with us. But in light of heinous actions, knee jerk forgiveness is no solution. To the contrary, for an individual or group to be told that they need to forgive another, can simply add at times to the problem by denying or confusing who was fault. Forgiveness which is confused with the need for repentance robs people of a faith that does justice, and offers only a faith that makes nice. Perhaps then I can say with a great deal of trepidation that forgiveness is not always the Christian thing to do.

You should take heed in contradicting what God has commanded us to do,what your saying is anti biblical and your saying it in a very aggressive tone.

64 posted on 10/07/2006 4:24:24 PM PDT by FancyFrogPants
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To: dirtboy
And realize both can co-exist and enrich each other. This is not an either/or situation.

Exactly.

The hobbits in the Shire lived in peace and innocence only because the Rangers fought the darkness and protected them. The Rangers did it willingly and with no strings attached because they wanted to preserve the way of live that they themselves could not lead.

65 posted on 10/07/2006 4:28:51 PM PDT by Samwise (All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.)
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To: dirtboy; MineralMan
I guess some people simply cannot accept the basic grace of what the Amish has done here. Heck, Mineral Man is an atheist and HE gets it.

Mineral Man usually gets it. He has got to be the most spiritual athiest I know of. :-)

66 posted on 10/07/2006 4:32:38 PM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: FancyFrogPants
I'm not the one contradicting God.

Try Luke 17: 3 on for size: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

Offering forgiveness without repentance does not follow the biblical model of forgiveness.

L

67 posted on 10/07/2006 4:35:37 PM PDT by Lurker (islam is not a religion. It's the new face of Fascism in our time. We ignore it at our peril.)
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To: Lurker

Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE Christians. Sorry I spoke to you.


68 posted on 10/07/2006 4:37:40 PM PDT by blu (People, for God's sake, think for yourselves)
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To: blu
"God hasn't forgiven the gunman, why should the Amish? (If I can presume to divine God's will here.)

Well, you should have stopped there. That was the brick wall of your argument."

Well then, if we can never presume what God wants, how can we know what to do? Sure, He has laid out some pretty simple guidelines, but even with those guidelines we have to make some interpretations. Surely you can see that there are differences in the way Christians interpret God's will. That why there are different denominations.

We are *required* by God to divine His will. He doesn't tell us how to carry out our day to day affairs. That would be ridiculous, right? We need to figure out how to act in accordance with His will.

I mean that's pretty simple. I get the impression from your comment that you disagree with me so, therefore, you are calling me stupid for trying to figure out how God would judge certain actions... I guess that also means we can't judge certain actions as "good" in God's eyes either, right?

69 posted on 10/07/2006 4:42:33 PM PDT by bolobaby
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To: NYer

As democrats and republicans fight tooth and nail for the high moral ground in the wake of the foley scandal, all of us, to a man, have just been humbled.


70 posted on 10/07/2006 4:47:47 PM PDT by bad company ([link:www.truthout.org/docs_2006/083006J.shtml | The Path to 9/11])
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To: blu
Oh, I see. You're one of THOSE Christians.

You mean one of those who takes what's written in the Bible as actually meaning exactly what it says?

Yea...then I guess I'm one of 'those'.

Here's a little tip for you. Looking down your nose at people that way can give you a nasty crik in your neck.

Sorry I spoke to you.

That's mighty Christian of you.

L

71 posted on 10/07/2006 4:47:56 PM PDT by Lurker (islam is not a religion. It's the new face of Fascism in our time. We ignore it at our peril.)
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To: Samwise

Same as my reply to blu...

...with the following addition...

Obviously I don't presume to divine all that is God. Still, we have plenty "God-would-approve" moments and no one bats an eyelash. When someone does a great good, we are thankful and we *presume* that God is pleased. Does God come down and give a speech for the person? No - we know in our hearts that the person is acting in the will of God.

This is the same situation, only in the reverse.


72 posted on 10/07/2006 4:47:57 PM PDT by bolobaby
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To: HungarianGypsy
Can you point me to the Chapter and Verse in the Bible which says we're supposed to forgive people who haven't repented?

I can't seem to find it.

Appreciate the help...

L

73 posted on 10/07/2006 4:50:19 PM PDT by Lurker (islam is not a religion. It's the new face of Fascism in our time. We ignore it at our peril.)
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To: Samwise
Look at how the State troopers responded. When the shots started firing within the building, did they wait for the SWAT team? Did they work out a tactical plan?

No, they rushed the building at great risk to themselves - they had to go through the windows when they found the doors barricaded. And then they carried the bloodied victims in their arms outside.

Do they, the warriors on the scene, decry that the Amish were not armed to fend off this monster? No. They realize that it is a statement to this country that we can have people such as the Amish in our midst, living a lifestyle from a hundred years ago. The Amish in turn took a brutal tragedy and turned it into spiritual inspiration to a country so jaded that it needed a kick in the head to start feeling anything again.

I would never be a pacifist or turn the other cheek. But I also will not decry the Amish for having such profound faith that they will accept that their lifestyle means they will have to foregive sometimes because they are what they are.

74 posted on 10/07/2006 4:55:06 PM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
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To: bolobaby
[This is what I believe. Your opinion may vary] I would not presume to know how God's gonna handle this guy. God makes the rules and interprets them, as he sees fit. We try to be Christ-like, but that doesn't give us the right to make the ultimate judgment calls.

I am not calling you stupid. I'm sorry you felt that I was (oh, and sorry for the clintonista apology!LOL!)

Forgiveness says more about the forgiver than the forgivee.
75 posted on 10/07/2006 5:15:26 PM PDT by blu (People, for God's sake, think for yourselves)
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To: knarf
sorta' like holding up a cross in front of a vampire in the movies.

Media = Vampires; same action. Suck and run.

76 posted on 10/07/2006 5:18:26 PM PDT by oyez ( The older I get, the better I was.)
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To: bad company
As democrats and republicans fight tooth and nail for the high moral ground in the wake of the foley scandal, all of us, to a man, have just been humbled.

You got that right! It's not about politics. It's all about faith.

77 posted on 10/07/2006 5:25:03 PM PDT by NYer ("It is easier for the earth to exist without sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.” PPio)
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To: bolobaby
Well baby, you've bolo'd again.

There is one thing that differentiates the God of the bible, the God the Amish worship, the God I worship, the God that allowed and encouraged our founding fathers to feel righteous .. righteous, I say .. in claiming sovereignty from their own countrymen to the point of fighting to the death for the individual liberty and freedom they believed God meant for man .. it is God's desire and will to forgive man and his sins.

That God is a forgiving God.

Now the gunman may burn in Hell if he is not saved, but it is equally true, if he is saved .. whether you agree with the biblical theology or not ... he is in heaven .. no longer tortured.

.

The Amish know this.

.

And I believe they desire we "English", by God's grace .. to know it also.

78 posted on 10/07/2006 5:38:50 PM PDT by knarf (Islamists kill each other ... News wall-to-wall, 24/7 .. don't touch that dial.)
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To: MineralMan
The Amish are very remarkable in the way they can forgive and in their faith. I know a few Amish and some exAmish and they are very strong in their beliefs. While some of the exAmish have left their faith they do show more forgiveness then most people I know.
79 posted on 10/07/2006 6:02:24 PM PDT by pandoraou812 ( barbaric with zero tolerance and dilligaf?)
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To: Lurker


I think Christ offering forgiveness to man as he's dying on the cross is all the verse and chapter we need.We are to be followers of Christ and live as he lived.

It don't get no clearer than this. God offering forgiveness to man even as man was mocking,laughing,beating and executing him.


80 posted on 10/07/2006 6:03:06 PM PDT by FancyFrogPants
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