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To: Coleus
I've always been a skeptic of 'studies' on every front, so forgive me if I ask a simple but direct question.

This study 'assumes' that murderers who kill their girlfriends/wives, etc are pro-choice, which on the surface of course makes sense. But I would have to question how many of these were actually involved in the Pro-Choice movement?

If you only include the activists engaged in the debate of abortion, does the study hold the same truths? Or are we opening up the population as we define it to suit our needs?

I'm just trying to be objective, I DETEST abortion lovers, but I don't want to use 'bad studies' as a tool against them, it only makes me look stupid!!!
4 posted on 09/28/2006 4:15:54 PM PDT by HeartOfDixie56 (Roll, Tide, Roll... (please?))
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To: HeartOfDixie56

It documents murders. The rationality of a study can take many forms. It shows that pro choicers are murderers. How refreshing. If you listen to the baby killers you would think they are angels. This article just seeks to throw a little mud on all those angels. Keeps them off balance.

Its kind of like saying you have stopped beating your wife.


11 posted on 09/28/2006 4:23:00 PM PDT by 2ndClassCitizen
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To: HeartOfDixie56
If you murder your girlfriend to kill your baby, you are part of the "pro-choice movement", 'cause that's what it's all about.

They're just cutting out the middleman is all.

I think you are trying to differentiate between different kinds of activists though ~

15 posted on 09/28/2006 4:32:56 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: HeartOfDixie56
how many of these were actually involved in the Pro-Choice movement.

Sin/behavior begins in the mind or thought process before it ever is acted out, you don't need to be in a movement.

19 posted on 09/28/2006 4:37:35 PM PDT by MsLady (Presidential prayer team)
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To: HeartOfDixie56
That's a good question, but I think it depends on what the meaning of "pro-choice" is. (NOT trying to imitate the former president's spin, I mean that.)

We know about Scott and Laci Peterson. There's also Mark Hacking (Utah, 2004), Stephen Poaches (PA, 2005), Tavious Hooks (NY, 2006), and former football player Rae Carruth. Were they pro-choice political activists before their wives/girlfriends refused to abort the children they carried? Perhaps not, but I suspect if you had asked their position on abortion, they would have said "pro-choice." For each man (and many like them), the problem started when the woman CHOSE to keep the child.

Because she wanted to keep the child and he didn't and he knew of no other remedy to the problem, he killed her.

IMO, whether the men are pro-choice activists or not, if they perceive abortion as a simple solution to an untimely/unwanted pregnancy and their wife/girlfriend won't abort, then her murder by him should be associated with the "pro-choice" position.

21 posted on 09/28/2006 4:50:24 PM PDT by Prov3456
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To: HeartOfDixie56

That's a rational question, and one that came to mind as I read the article.

It's a strech to throw the boyfriends etc. into the 'supports abortion' movement.


26 posted on 09/28/2006 6:29:14 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (God has blessed Republicans with political enemies who are going senile.)
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To: HeartOfDixie56

Haven't looked at the details, but from first whiff it smells of utterly-awful bad research.


27 posted on 09/28/2006 7:03:40 PM PDT by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: HeartOfDixie56
Why question a scientific study? /s

We all know that Super bowl Sunday is also the day which has the most domestic violence against women.
30 posted on 09/28/2006 9:42:10 PM PDT by art_rocks
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To: HeartOfDixie56

Some drunken scumbag kills his Ho and he becomes Pro-Choice? LoL


37 posted on 09/29/2006 9:58:58 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: HeartOfDixie56

Yeah - that's what I was wondering too. You just can't call someone who murders a pregnant woman ipso facto "pro-choice." Sounds pretty meaningless to me - as does the study in general.


49 posted on 09/29/2006 12:36:06 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: HeartOfDixie56; 2ndClassCitizen; layman; Prov3456; Balding_Eagle; Luke Skyfreeper; art_rocks; ...
This is not even a study, much less a scientific one, but I was intrigued and looked further at their data. Here's my conclusion:

On the one hand, if you go to the website where the data from this new study is supposedly housed, you find something organized like an encyclopedia that is definitely not new or recently updated. For example, I looked up Rockford, IL abortionist Richard Ragsdale on their encyclopedia page and the information was all quite accurate, but they didn't include the fact that he's been dead for two years now.

On the other hand (and this goes right to the heart of HeartofDixie's wise question), the violence and other crimes committed by just the abortionists in their encyclopedia far outweigh anything I've heard about from pro-life extremeists. I'm not including abortions in that total.

For example, Ragsdale got off scot free after taking child porn photos of his toddler foster daughter. But we're talking violence here, and there were 7 killings by "pro-life" extremists from 1993-1998, so...

1. Lawrence Alozie Akpulonu raped a patient under anesthesia in 1995. Bet she wasn't the only one, just the only one who woke up while he was committing the rape.

2 & 3. Akpulonu "was also given probation for brandishing a loaded handgun in front of pro-lifers and threatening their lives. ...Akpulonu threatened a parking garage attendant with a loaded .380 caliber semi-automatic pistol, which he had been carrying concealed in his vehicle, when the attendant asked him to remove his improperly parked car from a restricted area." Since those two happened before 1993, I'll put them aside for now...guess I'll have to come up with a total of 9 incidents.

4. Philip S. Alberts lost his license in 1995 after it came to light that he had molested over 100 women. He died before trial but prosecuters had 89 women slated to testify against him.

5. Abortionist Peter Bayliss tied one patient to a bed and stuff a sanitary pad in their mouth to keep them quiet.

6. In 1993, David Benjamin allowed a woman whose abortion he had botched to die in his clinic because he waited for at least an hour before summoning an ambulance. A paramedic testified that his efforts to save her were hindered when Benjamin lied about the nature of her condition and treament, and he was indicted for murder because of his "depraved indifference to human life."

7. In 1998, John Biskind and his staff botched an abortion and then left the victim hemorrhaging on a gurney for three hours before calling 911. Paramedics estimated that she had been dead for at least 20 minutes when they arrived.

8. The previous month a woman was bleeding in Biskind's recovery room. He scraped her uterus without anesthesia to find the source of the bleeding. It didn't stop, but he left the clinic and the woman was saved because a nurse called 911.

9. I'm including this one here even though it's after 1998 because it would be too cumbersome for the "catch-all" para below: "Reich was charged with 28 counts of battery, attempted battery, sexual misconduct, prescribing drugs without a license, coercion, and impersonating a doctor. Reich sexually assaulted two of his abortion patients, forcing them to have oral sex with him. Another patient claimed that Reich raped her and botched one of her abortions. Several court testimonies claimed that Reich sexually abused at least six of his patients and botched operations on at least four others." (Found in the entry for "Nicholas Braemer," who he took over the clinic from in 2000.

10. On June 6, 1993, abortionist Stanley Brown tried to run down 79-year old Mrs. Margaret Cowell with his car. He also was found to have performed tubal ligations on pateints without their consent in the Eighties and lost his license for two years in 1988.

Note that I stopped at "Brown" on their alphabetical list of violent/incompetent abortionists. So that's ten, and it's just the abortionists--not even all the abortionists with A and B names--no nurses, protestors, clinic escorts, non-activists killing their girlfriends, etc. In addition, on my list of ten incidents of violence I did not include the following: 7 deaths through botched abortion, 1 abortion so badly botched it was definitely some sort of homicide, an attempt to hide the body of another woman killed by a botched abortion, 1 abortion performed in 1983 on a woman who wasn't pregnant, several abortions without consent prior to 1993, a 1988 death from using an overdose of Lidocaine in lieu of a general anesthetic (with up to two patients per day having siezures from the use of lidocaine overdoses), an Aussie abortionist who tied a patient to a bed and stuffed a sanitary napkin in her mouth, the wife of said Aussie abortionist intentionally letting him die after he fell down some stairs, abotched 1986 abortion which was ruled "homicide" by the coroner because the abortionist had screwed up so badly and then bundled the patient out of the facility when she collapsed, an abortionist charged for brandishing a pistol at abortion protesters (charges dropped because of "discrepancies in witness' descriptions"), an abortioist who did a late-term abortion and only managed to remove one arm from the child who bled out and was stillborn and a case of an abortionist selling controlled meds to addicts.

So, here's my suggestion: Don't cite their "study," but you can believe with all your heart that their conclusion is accurate. In fact, it's probably too lenient. And unless they faked all their cites, their data is ironclad.

Somebody needs to do a real study on this subject with solid methodology.

50 posted on 09/29/2006 12:41:57 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (People who say there are jobs Americans won't do have never watched "Dirty Jobs.")
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