Posted on 09/17/2006 7:27:43 PM PDT by Sharks
Right, I posted Travis' own words, and you have the audacity to call me a liar. Maybe you can call the founder a liar too, after all Jim was the first one to pull Travis' words from the archive.
FWIW, I have never seen anyone on FR, or even the President of the United States, support that position. There have been claims to that effect, but if you actually look at the evidence, it is not true. I HAVE seen spirited debate and sometimes extreme flame wars on the best way to SOLVE the problem. Those are two different issues.
The saddest part of all of this is the demagoguery that overlies the issue of border security. It is the primary hindrance to even making progress and unfortunately as much of it has come from our team as from the other side.
It is really too bad.
I did not call you a liar anywhere in this thread. Please post proof otherwise.
I responded to a poster that said Travis wanted a civil war, my post said nothing about why Travis was banned. You may need to go back and read a few posts to see who was responding to what, as you seem a little confused.
You sure like to include the site owner when trying to bully someone. Not sure why that is, you do a pretty good job of bullying all by yourself.
Because I posted Travis' own words to you and the other poster! GEEZ, how many times do I have to tell you before that factoid sinks in?
You sure like to include the site owner when trying to bully someone. Not sure why that is, you do a pretty good job of bullying all by yourself.
Because he posted Travis' own words!
There are many people who absolutely do support, promote, encourage, and enable illegal immigration. There is a lot of money in illegal immigration at every step.
The process begins in Mexico, illegal immigration into the US is openly promoted by many Mexican authorities. It is to Mexico's benefit since millions of dollars are sent back to Mexico every year by illegals working and living in the US.
The next step in the chain is those who smuggle or guide illegals into the US from not only Mexico, but many other countries. Smugglers are not just doing it out of some kindness, they make a lot of money. Smugglers need help on both sides of the border in order to be successful so there are many others who profit from the human smuggling into the US.
Upon arrival into the US, illegals find they need certain documents in order to get by. There is a lot of money in producing and selling illegal documents.
Once an illegal secures a job his employer enjoys not only the profit of reduced payroll, but can get away with terrible working conditions for employees, which not only saves more money, but is also less hassle.
Many who employ illegals, especially in larger businesses are also large campaign donors, so politicians are hesitant to take any action that would cause them to not wish to donate.
A common saying is follow the money, and it really is true in this situation Illegal immigration is a huge cash cow, not only for Mexico but for many in the US involved in illegal immigration.
Everyone involved in this has a big stake in seeing it continue and will stop short of very little to keep illigal immigration flowing.
On early threads here about illegal immigration there were many who posted that they either hired illegals or in some other way enabled illegals to come to this country or to stay here. They were not bashful, and felt they had done nothing wrong. It was only after they discovered that many did not agree with them that most quit posting openly that they supported illegal immigration. There was also a big backlash against that thinking after the protests in the street in support of illegals. Some of the actual supporters of illegal immigration were banned, and those that are still here no longer openly admit to supporting illegal immigration.
I know some have accused others wrongly of supporting illegal immigration when they only disagreed with them on the issues. That happens on every hot button issue though, not just immigration threads.
This is an important issue, and many are divided not only on the basics, but disagree with many on all the details of the problems and solutions. It would be better if open honest discussion could take place without attacks and flame wars, but that is true of any major issue.
I have never had a problm discussing the issues involved with not only illegal immigration, but all the other problems on the southern border. I live here, and these issues are very important to me.
Here they come around the back stretch. Bushbot is leading, following by Rino, True Conservative, Real Conservative and laying there motionless in the back stretch is Travis.
There was no need for you to post to me to begin with, I had said nothing about why Travis was banned. You not only chose to continue posting to me, you felt the need for some reason to be sarcastic and take a bully tone in your posts. I will not be bullied by you or anyone else.
The owner posted what he posted, and it was there for all to read, and in fact still is. There was no need for you to harp on it. Mr. Robinson made his position quite clear, it doesn't seem to me he needs your help to get his ideas across.
Once again, if you want me to quit posting to you, then you need to quit posting to me. It's really very simple.
There are many people who absolutely do support, promote, encourage, and enable illegal immigration. There is a lot of money in illegal immigration at every step.
This is true. But I sincerely doubt you will find many on this site that do. There have been some, since banned, who openly supported that position. They were clearly here to drive a wedge between conservatives in a misguided ploy to suppress the vote this Fall. There are others who don't care enough to do background checks. But those are in the distinct minority. Most of us want border security heightened, the tide stemmed, a better system employed to do background checks among other things... and our arguments have been over the method of doing these things.
For that, some of us have been called OBLs. For me, the important thing to remember is that money drives this entire issue...from all sides. It is the single motivating factor. Once someone tells me that "I'm not in this for the money"—which can also be read as "power"— I no longer look at them as honest people. I don't care if you are an illegal, a democrat, a republican, a liberal, a conservative or a flat our Marxist, communist Castroian. You are in this for the money. That is the bottom line and I look at this entire issue through that lens.
I continually ask myself, "what will this "solution" do to the economy." Letting ILLEGAL immigrants into the country willy-nilly HURTS our economy. Letting LEGAL immigrants into the country HELPS our economy. It's as simple as that. That is where the rub is for me in relationship to Buchanan's position. He wants to block out the LEGAL immigrants. I believe that is wrong, anti-American and would hurt our country enormously. Others have accused me as being an "open border" person because of that stance. There is a fundamental difference between open borders and accepting large numbers of immigrants. In fact, if I had my way I'd rather see us cut immigration from hostile nations, including France ;-), and up the number we accept from Mexico. That is because we MUST look at security as a Global issue, not just a "water's edge" issue. When you see guys like Chavez, you realize that they could easily gain a foothold in a country as corrupt as Mexico. Therefore we must do as much as we possibly can to keep our border states as friendly as possible. That can not be lost in this discussion either.
What got me into the most trouble originally, was questioning one faction of the Minute Men who were making huge promises, raising money and allying themselves with several, what I call fundamentalist Conservatives (those who ignore the practical political realities on the ground which means they always loose elections...but their perfection is intact). That particular group has very little to show for their efforts other than raising the issue, for which I am grateful. But the things that have been promised, have yet to materialize. They are poster children for not understanding the concept of "choosing ones battles" which is a personal button of mine, and has been known to lead me into exasperated posting.
What bothers me is that lack of transparency can actually do so much damage to the effort to stem the tide of illegal immigrants. People tend to run screaming from corruption, and unless our own house is in order, we could end up screwing this up. I get very passionate about that...but, once again that must mean I'm part of the OBL.
In any case, with every hot button issue, people get banned. But once you turn on your own team, that is totally reasonable. There are many of us who get a long absolutely fine, even though we have strong disagreements on many, many issues. And there are a few here, that I can't remember ever agreeing with in specifics (although we agree on principle.) But never once have those folks ever wished me hung from a tree, or asked to have me kicked out of this forum (at least to my knowledge, ha!)—and I have never felt that way about them. I do start feeling that way about people who advocate killing off those who disagree, or saying that other people are not good enough conservatives, or tossing around personal attacks. Yes, I will admit to wishing they would go away so we could discuss the issues.
Once you cross that line, it is very difficult to take back. In fact, while I think most of what Nancy Pelosi says is absolute garbage...I don't wish her dead either. I wish her to be voted back into oblivion. I wish her political philosophy to fall into broad disfavor. But that is as far as it goes with my political opponents. Heck, I don't even wish Hillary dead. I wish her into obscurity and out of my misery...but not dead.
Anyway, thanks for the civil post. I think the entire concept of civility is often lost in cars and on Internet forums. Which makes one wonder if it every really was there in the first place. : D.
Have a terrific evening. I hope we cross paths again.
I also agree with you on many points. You have a good evening also.
I'll take pat buchanan for $200 Alex.
Make it $2 million and I'll throw in an eighth mile of cow fence.
And a black felt cowboy hat to wear under the desert sun?
LOL
bookmark
Good to hear from you. I don't usually read these immigration threads. Are they still haunted by the same bunch of creepy racists - Maroon Inspector, Spliff and Travis Bickle?
Onyx is NOT a moderator either.
So, who are the moderators?
Just kidding - you couldn't tell even if you wanted to.
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