The Street Cred of Manuel II [Byzantine emperor quoted by the pope]

National Review Online (The Corner) ^ | 9/17/06 | Peter Robinson

[goldstategop]

It needs translation. The original dialogue in its full context would I think, be more profoundly illuminating. I am one of those who believes the past has a lot to teach us about how to live in the present as well as to prepare for the future.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

[Beckwith]

It's as if the truth can no longer be uttered in polite company.

The purpose of political correctness is to blunt healthy dialogue and the Marxists of the Frankfurt School knew exactly what they were doing when they developed and spread the concept.

[yankeedame]

Manuel was forced to pay tribute to the Sultan Bayezid and was forced to follow him to his raids...

=================================

Bayezid I

Bayezid I
Ottoman Period

Preceded by: Murad I Ottoman Sultan, 1389–1402
Succeeded by:Interregnum

Bayezid I (Turkish: Beyazıt, nicknamed Yıldırım, "the Thunderbolt"; Arabic: بايزيد الأول; ca 1354–1403) was the sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1389 to 1402.

He ascended to the throne following the assassination of his father Murad I and immediately had his younger brother Yakub strangled to prevent him from staging a coup.

In revenge for the assassination of Murad I in the first Battle of Kosovo, Bayezid massacred the Serbian prisoners responsible. He then took as a wife the daughter of King Lazar of Serbia, allying himself with Serbs and enabling his offspring to claim Serbia as a dynastic privilege.

He appointed Stefan Lazarević as Serbian leader, and granted Serbia considerable autonomy. After this victory he started drinking alcohol but stopped after social unrest about his conduct.

In 1391 Bayezid laid siege to Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine empire. On the demand of the Byzantine emperor John V Palaeologus a new crusade was organized to defeat him. This proved unsuccessful: in 1396 the Christian allies, under the leadership of the Hungarian King and Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund, were defeated in the Battle of Nicopolis.

Bayezid built the beautiful Ulu Camii in his capital, Bursa, to celebrate this victory.

Thus, the siege of Constantinople continued, lasting until 1401. At one point, the Emperor even fled from the city. Salvation for the Byzantine empire, assaulted by Bayezid's Ottomans, came unexpectedly from the declaration of war on Bayezid by the Mongols.

In 1400, the Central Asian warlord Timur Lenk had succeeded in rousing the local kingdoms that had been conquered by the Turks to join him in his attack on Bayezid.

In the fateful Battle of Ankara, on July 20, 1402, Bayezid was captured by Timur. His sons, however, escaped, and fled to Serbia until Timur died.

Some contemporary reports claimed that Timur kept Bayezid chained in a cage as a trophy. Likewise, there are many stories about Bayezid's captivity, including one that describes how Timur used him as a footstool.

Another one describes how Timur made Bayezid's Serbian wife dance naked at his court.

However, these accounts are thought to be false, as writers from Timur's court reported that Bayezid was treated well, and that Timur even mourned his death.

Likewise, Timur's own history with other rulers demonstrated that he was true to his word when he later claimed to have aimed at re-establishing Bayezid on the Ottoman throne.

One year later, Bayezid died‚some accounts claim that he committed suicide by smashing his head against the iron bars of his cage.

=====================================

Source:http://www.answers.com/topic/beyazid-i

[Mike Darancette]

try 732 AD NOT 1732 for the Battle of Tours

I knew that

Sigh, I knew that. The Dark ages did not end in 1800 with the appointment of Charles as Holy Roman Emperor.

[PghBaldy]

I am constantly muttering when reading about the latest outrage committed by Muslims - in the cafe I frequent. I am sick of the PC lies.

[yankeedame]

That would be 732, not 1732. Coincidentally, this past week was the anniversary of the defeat of jihadis at Vienna, about a thousand years after the Battle of Tours.

Yes, and that's the origin of the crescent roll, or croissant!

This is b/c it was a Viennese baker (or baker's apprentice, I forgot which) who first became aware of the invading Muslims. Seems he heard them dig, dig, digging away at that particular section of the city wall.

Any who, everybody swung into action, especially the ham fisted, mighty-muscled bakers of the city. The Muslim were sent packing, their tail between their legs. And to celebrate the bakers created the (Symbol of Muslim) crescent roll which the citizens of Vienna cheerfully "defeated" (munch down) as many, and as often as they wanted.

So eat up! (Before the multi culturalists make it illegal or something)

[Elsiejay]

The armies of Islam were halted at Vienna, I am told, on 11 September, 1683. I wondered, five years ago, whether that day and month were selected for that reason.

[gandalftb]

In the name of Ahuramazda the Creator of Life and Wisdom

From the Shahan-Shah of Iran Yazdgerd to Omar Ibn Khat'tab the Arab Calif.
In your letter you summon us Iranians to your god whom you call "Allah-u-Akbar";
and because of your barbarity and ignorance, without knowing who we are and Whom we worship,
you demand that we seek out your god and become worshippers of "Allah-u-Akbar".

How strange that you occupy the seat of the Arab Calif but are as ignorant as any desert roaming Arab!
You admonish me to become monotheistic in faith.
Ignorant man, for thousands of years we Aryaee have, in this land of culture and art, been monotheistic
and five times a day have we offered prayers to God's Throne of Oneness.
While we laid the foundations of philanthropy and righteousness and kindness in this world
and held high the ensign of "Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds",
you and your ancestors were desert wanderers who ate snakes and lizards
and buried your innocent daughters alive.

You Arabs who have no regard for God's creatures,
who mercilessly put people to the sword,
who mistreat your women and bury you daughters alive,
who attack caravans and are highway robbers,
who commit murder,
who kidnap women and spouses;
how dare you presume to teach us,
who are above these evils, to worship God?

You tell me to cease the worship of fire and to worship God instead!
To us Iranians the light of Fire is reminiscent of the Light of God.
The radiance and the sun-like warmth of fire exuberates our hearts,
and the pleasant warmth of it brings our hearts and spirits closer together,
that we may be philanthropic, kind and considerate,
that gentleness and forgiveness may become our way of life,
and that thereby the Light of God may keep shining in our hearts.

Our God is the Great Ahuramazda.
Strange is this that you too have now decided to give Him a name,
and you call Him by the name of "Allah-u-Akbar".

But we are nothing like you.
We, in the name of Ahuramazda,
practice compassion and love and goodness and righteousness and forgiveness,
and care for the dispossessed and the unfortunate;
But you, in the name of your "Allah-u-Akbar" commit murder, create misery
and subject others to suffering!
Tell me truly who is to blame for your misdeeds?
Your god who orders genocide, plunder and destruction,
or you who do these things in his name? Or both?

You, who have spent all your days in brutality and barbarity, have now come
out of your desolate deserts resolved to teach, by the blade and by conquest,
the worship of God to a people who have for thousands of years been civilized
and have relied on culture and knowledge and art as mighty supports.

What have you, in the name of your "Allah-u-Akbar", taught these armies of Islam
besides destruction and pillage and murder that you now presume to summon others to your god?

Today, my people's fortunes have changed.
Their armies, who were subjects of Ahuramazada,
have now been defeated by the Arab armies of "Allah-u-Akbar".
And they are being forced, at the point of the sword, to convert to the god by the name of
"Allah-u-Akbar". And are forced to offer him prayers five times a day but now in Arabic;
since your "Allah-u-Akbar" only understands Arabic.

I advise you to return to your lizard infested deserts.
Do not let loose upon our cities your cruel barbarous Arabs who are like rabid animals.
Refrain from the murder of my people.
Refrain from pillaging my people.
Refrain from kidnapping our daughters in the name of your "Allah-u-Akbar".
Refrain from these crimes and evils.

We Aryaee are a forgiving people, a kind and well-meaning people.
Wherever we go, we sow the seeds of goodness, amity and righteousness.
And this is why we have the capacity to overlook the crimes and the misdeeds of your Arabs.

Stay in your desert with your "Allah-u-Akbar", and do not approach our cities;
for horrid is your belief and brutish is your conduct.

Yazdgerd Saasaani

[browardchad]

Apart from the emperor's writings there is no independent proof that the conversations ever took place. They must represent a mixture of fact and fiction.

I realize you're quoting someone else, but "they must represent a mixture of fact and fiction" is somewhat non-scholarly, to say the least. Why "must" they? Do historians agree that they must, or is that simply this author's opinion?

[Kolokotronis]

"In 1396 the united christian forces of Europe under the leadership of the king of Hungary Sighismund, in an effort to drive away the Turkish invaders from Europe, were defeated in the battle of Nicopolis. Thousands of Franks, Germans, Italians, Polish were killed, all the prisoners were slaughtered and Turks were free to pour south. They overran Thessaly and the Peloponnese and in their usual way they ravaged and devastated the territories they crossed through."

On January 28, 1398 the castle just up the mountain behind my family's home in a Peloponnesian village fell to the Turks after a 14 day seige. The castle controlled a key pass into the Taegetos Mountains. Virtually all the women and children had fled into the deeper mountains, but every man and older boy left standing in the fortress when it fell were put to the sword. The miles around, forests, fields, orchards, homes and many churches were devastated. That day is remembered with prayers and a special liturgy to this day in the village.

[Verginius Rufus]

The Ottomans' "blood tribute" was of young boys from Christian villages, not newborns, and not only from Greek villages. Ivo Andric's novel The Bridge on the Drina centers around a bridge in Visegrad, Bosnia, which was built on the orders of a Grand Vizier who had been taken from that area as a boy in the blood tribute and later rose to the highest position in the sultan's bureaucracy.

[Cicero]

Another historical novel that touches on this subject is the fifth in Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles, "Pawn in Frankincense."

I'm not sure if I'd recommend these novels or not. They are not for every taste. But they include a lot of fascinating historical background.

Newborn isn't quite right, I agree, because a child would have to be weaned before it could leave its mother, but many children were taken quite young.

As you say, some of these children ended up in high posts through the arbitrary will of the Sultan, but there's something most unpleasant about serving your civilization's enemy in such a way.

[VOA]

If this is written by THE Peter Robinson, he knows a thing or two about
persuasive writing in regard to facing down and beating an Evil Empire.
Even when people in his own government tried to deep-six his work.

http://www.hooverdigest.org/974/robinson.html

[Mount Athos]

German translation only? Thank you for this

[FreedomCalls]

German translation only? Thank you for this

The German translation and the original Greek are all I can find so far. I'll keep looking.

[Cheburashka]

Moslems use a lunar calendar of 354 days. (yes 354 days, that is not a misprint) So anniversary dates never match with a solar calendar (like ours) up except by coincidence.

[Pete from Shawnee Mission]

It is the writer's opinion. I tend to believe that he took notes of his conversation as was elsewhere suggested, but it would not be unusual to write a book like this in the form of a fictional conversation between two or more people. Consider Dante's Divine Comedy.

I waded through the fairly extensive bibliography at the end of the site. If he had been able to ascertain an "independent proof," presumably from an Islamic source, he would have stated this. He probably had state this for the sake of more liberal readers. I doubt that anyone on the Islamic side would have taken note of the conversations unless Manuel Paleologia had converted. He didn't and did the only think he could at the time, to leave us with a warning about Islam.