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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"They also found little sign of solar warming or cooling when they checked telescope observations of sunspots against temperature records going back to the 17th century."

Oh really? They were making solar observations back then? There is a disconnect in this statement. And why not go back further through the records of tree rings? (Still waiting for these geniuses to explain past warm periods when MAN WASN'T AROUND)

"Most experts say emissions of greenhouse gases, mainly from burning fossil fuels in power plants, factories and cars, are the main cause of a 0.6 Celsius (1.1 F) rise in temperatures over the past century.

A dwindling group of scientists says that the dominant cause of warming is a natural variation in the climate system, or a gradual rise in the sun's energy output."

What experts? Where? Was a survey of scientists done to support these statements?

"And global Ice Ages, like the last one which ended about 10,000 years ago, seem linked to cyclical shifts in the earth's orbit around the sun rather than to changes in solar output."

But you don't know the reason why so how can you know now?


"Spruit said a "Little Ice Age" around the 17th century, when London's Thames River froze, seemed limited mainly to western Europe and so was not a planet-wide cooling that might have implied a dimmer sun."

Oh so you admit minor variations of weather patterns over a decade? So how do you know the present warm-up (debatable as well) won't end next year? Because of the hockey stick? You can't even predict the weather NEXT WEEK.
15 posted on 09/13/2006 2:14:12 PM PDT by samm1148 (Pennsylvania-They haven't taxed air--yet)
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To: samm1148

.........(Still waiting for these geniuses to explain past warm periods when MAN WASN'T AROUND............

Dinosaurs farted alot!


22 posted on 09/13/2006 2:21:45 PM PDT by aShepard (Maybe the UN should donate UNICEF proceeds to the Gates Foundation, and fold!)
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To: samm1148; Ernest_at_the_Beach; aShepard; cogitator; Calvin Locke
["They also found little sign of solar warming or cooling when they checked telescope observations of sunspots against temperature records going back to the 17th century."]

Oh really?

Yes, really.

They were making solar observations back then?

Yes they were.

There is a disconnect in this statement.

The only disconnect is the one between your lack of knowledge on this topic and the amount of scorn you direct at those who actually do know something about the topic.

Galileo was making detailed records of sunspots starting in 1610. That's still in the 17th century the last time I checked. Here's one of his many documents on his observations:

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That's the pattern of sunspots on July 6, 1613. Here's a movie made from Galileo's detailed drawings of the sunspots from each day over the course of one month (June 2 through July 8, 1613): http://galileo.rice.edu/sci/observations/ssm_fast.mov

And Galileo wasn't the only one recording sunspots. Thomas Harriot also made records of sunspot activity. For example, here are his notes for the sunspots of December 1610:

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Christoph Scheiner was also recording sunspots in the 1600's. Here are some of his notes from October 1611:

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Here's a page from Scheiner's massive volume of solar observations, "Rosa Ursina", published in 1630:

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Johannes Hevelius made his own records of sunspot activity, such as this one from 1644:

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Also recording sunspots in the 1600's were Pierre Gassendi, Giovanni Battista Riccioli, Benedetto Castelli, and Johannes and David Fabricius, among others.

Many of these men used a device such as the helioscope, which allowed for extremely accurate observations and the direct recording of sunspot locations onto paper:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

For a Java apple that lets you view the monthly sunspot data for any date between 1750 and 2000, see this webpage.

So yes, Virginia, there really is detailed sunspot data available for as far back as the 17th century, despite your uninformed incredulity and sarcasm.

54 posted on 09/13/2006 4:02:05 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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To: samm1148

Well, they only had accurate daily sunspot measurements dating back to 1854.

A much better article on the report:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060913-sunspots.html


59 posted on 09/13/2006 4:53:10 PM PDT by mrsmith
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