What Pilots Could Tell Us (Re: KY crash and others)

NY Times ^ | August 30, 2006 | JON A. KROSNICK (NYT Op-Ed)

[PushinTin]

Hate ATC that bad eh. Can't handle someone who would blow your nonsense completely out of the water?? Facts are a scary thing...

[reagandemo]

Facts are a scary thing?? They sure as hell are and if you would read my postings you would understand what I said. Now Move along Troll.

[El Gato]

So the new gizmos have taken the low tech compass out of the equation. Perhaps not officially, but what you just said might be the reason the pilot didn't, as matter of course, check the runway assignment against the lowly compass heading.

Some of the information on the MFD is essentially the same information as the compass would show, just derived from a different source. Look at post #30, the little airplane in the lower left is pointing at the heading. They obviously didn't look at that and/or correlate it to the assigned runway heading.

[AFreeBird]

Yea, I know what the MFD display's. But I think sometimes info gets lost, or overlooked, in a busy display because you're focusing on some other facet of data.

[El Gato]

Like you said, a runway data set in the computer might help but would not warn against using the wrong runway in a parallel situation

If the aircraft has GPS or other accurate position sensors it would. You'd just use both position and heading in your "wrong runway" algorithm. There should be sufficient separation between runways to allow for a fair amount of GPS position error. Similarly if there are intersecting runways, they should differ by a large enough amount to allow for heading errors.

[PushinTin]

Not a troll moron. Just hate people who think they know something and start convicting people. The MAIN fault is without a doubt the pilots, so get the hell over it. You would think a professional pilot would be able to find the only open runway, go through the pilots checklist, notice no lights, notice cracks in he runway with grass growing through them, taxiway/runway signs, airport directory, flip charts. A few of these things MIGHT have caused this not to happen. Controllers DO NOT have time to watch all aircraft all the time. This is a known fact. You ever thought the controller was probably working the whole approach control airspace? They may have been turning a plane final at another airport or maybe issuing traffic on a unknown VFR. What takes priority, and aircraft on the ground or one in the air? Getting the picture yet. You may be a pilot but you DON'T know everything about the flying system, so grow the hell up and quit convicting people when you are ignorant of the facts. Some people takes these childish things personal, not me of course, just trying to educate a simpleton. Had enough yet or you want some more facts...

[OrioleFan]

I was told you add a 0 to the runway number to get the heading which should match the compass.

[PushinTin]

Not always. The runway maybe 17 but the actual heading is 172 degrees. It actual moves around over a period of time, a little thing called magnetic variance.

[phxdan]

LAXT, LAX Approach (pre-socal), P50. Someone you know, knows me, guaranteed.

[PushinTin]

This I will address to all my friends and family here at FR. What I am trying to say is to lay blame or fault is NOT the thing to do prior to the final investigation. I know we are all guilty of it, me included, but in these kind of cases things get involved quickly. It can be something very complex or extremely simple. NOBODY is perfect and accidents are going to happen. All the people in the flying system (Pilots, Controllers, Airports...) work EXTREMELY hard to prevent these kind of things. We both want this to be the safest system possible and every effort will be made to find to causes and correct them. Truth here in this case is it’s too early and not enough data to come to any conclusions or blame. One-person mid-shifts are not uncommon and going to minimum staffing has been mandated at certain times. It a money/personnel management situation and I am NOT a part of management so don’t get me started. We do talk to more than one airplane at a time and are/have to be multitasking experts. At any time we could be issuing a vector/turn to the final approach course while thinking about another 2 or 3 aircrafts next instructions while listening to a release over a shout line speaker from a satellite airport while entering information in the Air Traffic computer system while the phone is ringing from the Center. It’s just part of the job. We constantly have to move our attention from place to place and it never fails something happens while we are looking someplace else. I haven't heard what the controller was doing at the time in this case. They could have been asleep at the wheel or issuing merging target procedures. If it was the latter, whose fault was that? Better yet, how would you ever sleep again?
I stand corrected for laying blame in my previous post, my bad. I am a lazy overpaid government employee....

[PushinTin]

I have been at D10 since '93 and I am sure you would be correct...

[safisoft]

You would think a professional pilot would be able to find the only open runway, go through the pilots checklist, notice no lights, notice cracks in he runway with grass growing through them, taxiway/runway signs, airport directory, flip charts.

Pilots are people. ALL people make mistakes. The notion that pilots should do everything perfectly is not only a pipe dream, it is a concept that will actually will lead to future accidents.

Threat and Error Management is a skill that must be taught and continually validated. Blaming pilots for being human only will lead to more accidents.

For my money, controllers could use more Threat and Error Management training as well. Several airlines (mine included) make Threat and Error Management the heart of everything taught and validated in their pilots. Those airlines don't blame pilots for making mistakes... they train them to catch them. A pilot that catches his/her errors is far better than one that "never makes mistakes... yet."

The idea that "getting better pilots" fixes anything is about as stupid as thinking "better controllers" is a fix. Better training does go a long way toward fixing the problem as long as we don't have idiots blaming a pilot for every mistake he makes. The ComAir pilots made a mistake that 50% of all pilots have ALMOST made. The difference in this case was NOT worse pilots.

[reagandemo]

Ahh I love your handle of the English language. For your information since you are such a scholar read the last press release from the FAA. Your TC is not looking so good. You need to get the facts and quite looking through your colored lens.

[PushinTin]

Actually he looks fine. He is required to do administrative duties and everything else on a one person mids. You just can't admit you are a pilot who doesn't care for ATC. What you didn't get what you wanted once so your pissed at the whole system. Typical childish crap from a me me me pilot. You know nothing about working Air Traffic. You are totally ignorant of the situation and cannot justify laying blame on anyone yet. Maybe you should take your 'Rose' colored glasses off and clean the dung off while your at it.

[reagandemo]

Your rant is laughable. The FAA report will silence your scree.

[PushinTin]

No you are laughable and it was NEVER a rant. Are you seeking psychological help? Is that how you lost your ticket?