Posted on 07/19/2006 7:10:06 AM PDT by white trash redneck
The F-35 (recently named the Lightning II) is due to enter service soon. While the F-22 is widely seen as the ultimate air-to-air machine, the F-35 is described as a multi-role aircraft. How does the F-35 compare in the air-to-air mission against likely competitors like the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, and the multi-national Eurofighter?
The Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter are all in service or expected to enter service in 2006. All of them boast some of the best electronics suites ever to appear in combat aircraft. All have top speeds approaching 2,000 kilometers an hour. All three aircraft carry excellent beyond-visual-range missiles (like the Mica, AMRAAM, and Meteor). All are highly maneuverable. But will they be better than the F-35 in a fight?
The answer, surprisingly, is probably not. The F-35 has one big advantage over these three fighters from Europe. Its radar signature is very small – as is the case with the F-117 and F-22. Given that its speed is comparable to the European jets, and its AESA radar is at least as good as the European systems, this "invisibility" is a decisive advantage. The best weapons in the world are useless if they cannot see their targets.
The F-35 will be able to see the Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter long before it can be seen itself. The first rule of air combat may be "speed is life", but the second rule is "lose the sight, lose the fight". In the 21st century, sight includes radar. It is very likely that the only warning the F-35 may give of its presence will be when its radar has locked on to one of the European fighters. By that point, the F-35 is already close to launching its AMRAAMs.
This is probably the major reason for the United States Air Force's future dominance of the air. Even its second-best fighter will probably be able to best the front-line designs of other western nations in a "paper" fight based on specifications and capabilities. When the level of training American pilots get is added to the mix, the F-35's advantage becomes staggering. One other factor to consider is that the United States Air Force plans to have 1,763 F-35s on inventory (the Marine Corps and Navy variants would add another 780 F-35s to the mix). If the Rafale is built to a planned force level of 292, and the Saudi order for the Eurofighter goes through, the combined Gripen, Rafale, and Eurofighter production runs will total 1,262, meaning there will be two F-35s for every one of the advanced European fighters. – Harold C. Hutchison (haroldc.hutchison@gmail.com)
I'll give you the tanks part, because the Germans had that part nailed down with the Tiger and Panther, both of which used and abused our Shermans. But aside from the ME 262, we had the P-38, P-47, and P-51, all of which were capable of taking on a ME 109 or FW 190 and smoking them. As for rifles, the semi-auto M-1 Garand was superior to the bolt action Mauser.
Well, those are two different arguments.
To say that "conventional warfare is obsolete and has been superseded by asymmetrical warfare" is a very different argument than "manned aircraft are obsolete".
You may make the observation that you think assymetrical warfare will make manned aircraft obsolete (which I would disagree with) but you have not linked those together logically in that fashion.
Boy, no kidding! I got a chance to fire a BAR last year...what an impressive firearm.
"the political and millitary leadership in Germany was simply crazy."
In the 1980's there was a professor of military history at West Point who had the view that the Allies did not beat the German Army. The German leadership beat it. Ran it into the ground, and as you point out made stupid decisions.
Yep!. This is the reason why the allied invasion and bombing of Germany succeded that smoothly, since most of the Wehrmacht was worn out against the Red Army. It was not in the west were Germany lost its war, it was in Stalingrad.
You can be thankful that most of the heavy fighting was done by the Russians. In Germany we still speak about the "Kamerad von der Westfront" (comrade from the western front) if we want to say that someone is slow and lazy, since a stopover there was considered as a holiday. That does not mean that we take Americans as 2nd class soldiers, but the Russians were those we were really afraid of. Americans fought courageously but civilized. The situation on the eastern front was much worse for Germany and Germans.
In fact only a few capable pilots were left in Germany when the real conflict with America began in 1944. Most of those who fought against the USAF were boys with 12 hours training in a Me 109. Not very effective and easy fodder to well trained US-pilots.
By conflict.
Gerhard Barkhorn who had 301 victories entered the war in 1940 and was not engaged in the Spanish civil war. Same thing with Erich Hartmann that scored 352 victories.
Adolf Hitler was the best friend the Allies had in WW2. He and Goering threw away the Battle of Britain by diverting the Luftwaffe to the Blitz when the RAF was nearly worn out. Hitler also wasted precious time invading the Balkans prior to invading the USSR. When the Wehrmacht had the Russians on the ropes, he single-handedly saved them by diverting Guderian's panzers away from Moscow to complete the encirclement at Kiev. I could go on, but I think the professor was onto something.
Thanks. Most of my historical interest in such lay in WWI. Richthofen (both of them), Voss, Fonck, Ball, Rickenbacker, etc. Amazing what they did in glorified kites.
A German Sturmgewehr 44
Although it is techically different the concept was used by the Russians to develop their AK 47.
I suspect the sentiment of being afraid of someone had less to do with their warfighting capability and more to do with the perceived barbarity of the opponent.
Just as the Germans would have rather fought the Americans than the Russians, the Americans would have rather fought the Germans than the Japanese.
In general, Americans were not beheading their German captives, slicing off their genitals and stuffing them in their mouths, or vice versa.
In General. So yes, I am glad that the Soviets threw their citizenry at the Germans...after all, there was a treaty that was broken and there was an invasion. We have always been fortunate in the USA...we have two oceans insulating us, and we don't have to worry about invaders coming into our country, flattening villages and the enemy lining everyone up against the wall and shooting them. We have a lot to be thankful for as Americans. Would my country have fought with the same degree of barbarity if Germany had invaded the USA and used the same tactics they did on the Soviets or the Soviets on the Germans? Unfortunately, probably yes. The fighting in the Pacific took place outside of urban areas for the most part, and it was barbaric. No quarter was given out there. American soldiers killed Japanese with no more compulsion than if it had been killing rats in many cases.
When Americans came into town, the people in Germany didn't go running out the other side of the town towards the Soviet lines to try and make it across to them, and there was a reason for that.
Just curious though...if Germany's good fighter pilots were gone by 1944, where did they go and when?
As far as I know, they were there in 1939 through 1942 still adding to their scores. Did the Russians killed them all off? Or was it the American bomber raids? Or was it the British? 1943 must have been a really bad year if they all disappeared in 1943.
Of course, for the Japanese, all THEIR really good pilots DID disappear in 1943, with few exceptions.
So I have heard, and am familiar with the weapon.
It is like an unknown or obscure literary work: It can be the greatest thing ever written, but if nobody ever read it and it didn't influence anything or anyone, then it isn't the greatest thing ever written.
While a beautiful weapon, it did not contribute to the war, any more than the FW-190 D-7 did. It was completely irrelevant, too little too late. Although I would guess that any soldier who caught a round from one of the rare ones deployed to frontline troops would disagree with that assessment.
I did watch a movie recently, "Downfall", in which I saw quite a few of these portrayed, mostly used by troops guarding Hitler.
Just curious though...if Germany's good fighter pilots were gone by 1944, where did they go and when? As far as I know, they were there in 1939 through 1942 still adding to their scores. Did the Russians killed them all off? Or was it the American bomber raids? Or was it the British? 1943 must have been a really bad year if they all disappeared in 1943.
Naturally a mixture of everything. 5 years of war made the situation of 1944 Germany quite difficult. I am not speaking about aces like Hartmann or Rudel but I spaek about the usual fighter pilot in Germany. If you fight for some years the chance to die is quite high. I.e. my Granddad was a Luftwaffe-pilot since 1934 and he was used as a flight-instructor without any combat missions until 1944 since he was involved into a fistfight with his disciplinarian because of my grandmother :-) in 1939. It saved probably his life that he was not "promoted" and send to the front like his comrades. Most of them died. Those flight instructors were kept completely out of the fighting because they were important multiplicators to the Luftwaffe. Then the war situation became that precarious and the shortage of pilots was that eminent that they started to use even this important basement against the allies since most of the other experienced pilots were dust. This is why he fought against American and British opponents with some "success" although the war was already lost for Germany since 1943. Unlike the majority of the German late-war pilots he belonged to this small well trained elite due to his long time experience. He told me that his commanders started to send 17-year old boys into fights with Mustangs after they recieved a 12-hour training knowing exactly that they will not have any chance to survive. Fighting to the very end can turn out quite crazy sometimes.
Umm, no. I'm sure it was named for the American (not British) Lockheed manufactured figher of legendary WWII fame:
LOL! Too funny!
But I would add another zero to your figures regarding AC obsolesence. - There will always be a place/function/mission for men in AC until such time that any new technology cannot be countered. - And that may be never
Looks like lightning in a bottle.
I saw a eurofighter at an airshow recently. I wish I could see the F22 and the F35 too. I want to see pilotless autonomous fighters in my lifetime as well. I would gladly go to an air show to watch something like that manouver.
In 1938, a guy named Dutch Kindelberger visited Europe, where he saw the production lines of Europe's two best fighters. One plane had a perfectly elliptical wing, which allows for maximum lift-over-drag ratio. The machine's finish and fit were impeccable, which was dependent on extensive hand work.
Another was built with straight lines and the fuselage was even designed as a series of quasi-conical sections that could be built anywhere individually, and then assembled into complete airplane. The straight-line wing went together easily and instead of having compound curves everywhere, the plane only had them on a couple of sheet metal fairings.
Pilots who flew both planes noted that the elliptical-wing fighter was a joy to handle, with light, balanced controls at all speeds. The straight-winged plane demanded considerable athleticism from its pilots, especially at higher speeds where the ailerons became stiff as concrete. Otherwise, the performance of the two aircraft was very similar.
Kindelberger came back home and told his designers, including Edgar Schmued, about the two planes. When his company designed a plane, it wound up outperforming both of its predecessors, but it was designed from day one to be manufactured in mass production.
The three planes were the Supermarine Spitfire, the Messerschmitt Bf109, and the North American P-51 Mustang. The Messerschmitt was the most produced of the airplanes with over 35,000 built. It is the rarest today -- losing a war will do that to you. But by late in the war, it was hopelessly outclassed, but the Germans were still building thousands of them -- slaves to their own foresight in designing the plane for easy, decentralized production. The Mustang was not produced in similar numbers because the USAAF was not losing anywhere near as many planes as the Luftwaffe, and beginning in August and September, 1944, the US cut fighter production back in anticipation of victory. The Germans needed fighter production
The pilots that flew each of the three planes all believed -- and in the case of the survivors, believe to this day -- that they had the best machine.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
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