DaVinci Escapism [Gnosticism is like Liberalism]

American Conservative Union Foundation ^ | 6/28/06 | Thomas Brewster

[ModelBreaker]

Then the Republican Party is the Christian Party?

That's not what I said and you know it. What is especially annoying about your quote of my material is that you elided the next section, knowing that it was inconsistent with your glib response.

There are a lot of R's as well as D's who are also nominal Christians for reasons of either family history or political expediency but who hold a humanist worldview.

It is very hard to read the New Testament as a believer and to hold a humanist worldview--regardless what party you belong to. Some genuine believers apparently do in some regards; but I suspect that is the result of their not having studied the New Testament or not having thought through what it means for political philosophy.

But if you want to continue to twist what I said into the silly oversimplification above, go ahead.

Instead of asking questions, how 'bout you answer one? Do you think the New Testament is consistent with a liberal worldview or, for that matter, with any humanist worldview?

[mugs99]

Look at #15. He gave a good response to your question.

No, he dodged and ducked just like you're doing. I asked a simple question that could be answered with a yes or no. That you choose not to answer the question tells me everything I need To know.
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[mugs99]

That's not what I said and you know it. What is especially annoying about your quote of my material is that you elided the next section, knowing that it was inconsistent with your glib response.

I didn't say you said anything. I asked a question. I edited out the irrelevant part. I didn't ask for a Bible lesson. I asked a simple question that could be answered with a yes or no.

Instead of asking questions, how 'bout you answer one?
Do you think the New Testament is consistent with a liberal worldview or, for that matter, with any humanist worldview?

I think the New Testament is consistent with the world view of the Semitic peoples of 2000 years ago. I think Jesus was a great Jewish teacher who brought the teachings of Socrates to the masses.

I'm not a Christian nor a Jew, so my opinion of the New Testament differs from yours. My opinion of the DaVinci Code also differs from yours. I don't see it as heresy. I see it as silly nonsense that is getting way more attention than it deserves.

My concern is the political situation we now find ourselves in. The GOP is becoming a Religious party representing fundamentalist Christians. This is political suicide for the GOP.
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[ModelBreaker]

I think the New Testament is consistent with the world view of the Semitic peoples of 2000 years ago. I think Jesus was a great Jewish teacher who brought the teachings of Socrates to the masses.

You should read N.T.Wright's "The Resurrection of the Son of God." He does a great job of putting early Christian teachings in the context of Hellenistic philosophy. Christ's teachings were profoundly different than Socrates'. It's a good read too by a major theologian and historian.

I'm not a Christian nor a Jew, so my opinion of the New Testament differs from yours.

The New Testament says what it says. You don't have to be a believer to understand the worldview there. All you have to do is spend some time studying it, regardless of your political or religions affiliation. So I'm not sure what you mean by having a different opinion. Do you mean that my description of the New Testament worldview is wrong? Or that you don't believe Jesus was resurrected? Or something else?

My concern is the political situation we now find ourselves in. The GOP is becoming a Religious party representing fundamentalist Christians. This is political suicide for the GOP.

Just a couple of points. Nothing I have said in my posts is particularly 'fundamentalist.' I am not a fundamentalist. But, here my Catholic friends on the thread may be able to help, I don't think my post 15 is at all inconsistent with Roman doctrine. It was a pretty straightforward statement of stuff that folks who study the New Testament really don't have much of an argument about.

That said, I too think it would be a mistake to turn the Republican party into Pat Robertson's party--many good conservatives are not Christians. Similarly, it would be a mistake for the Republican party to drive off the Christians, as we comprise well over half the party. Christians have a lot in common with conservatives. The reason for that is that the conservative worldview is, in my opinion, derived directly from the Christian worldview. And conservatives share many values with the Republican party.

Part of what you are seeing is that the dems have become the home of fundamentalist humanists, if you will. In their zeal to drive Christianity out of the public square and believing Christians out of policy making, they have provoked a backlash that has come, primarily from the Republicans. For the most part, that conflict has helped the Republicans as many values voters who used to be democrats have seen what their party actually stands for and have started to vote Republican. In fact, we probably won the 2004 election because we were successful with believing Catholics on values issues. OTOH, clowns like Pat Robertson have hurt the party.

Another part of what you are seeing is that the formerly democrat south is now Republican. There are a lot more believing Christians in the South, percentage wise, than elsewhere. That has been another reason the secular vs Christian split between the two parties has become so pronounced. A large number of the believing Christians have left the democrat party over the past twenty years.

So as a practical matter, believing Christians are disproportionately represented in the Republican party vs the dems. Because the parties represent their members, that has changed both parties and has made the values differences more stark.

For the Rockefeller Republicans and business Republicans, that is uncomfortable as they are both humanist and their main interest seems to me to be the facilitation of being free to make money--the culture issues are less important to them. That's because their worldview is a different kind of humanism than the dems. But it is humanism and so they really have no home. The dems don't want them because they believe in economic freedom but they are uncomfortable with the Christian worldview so don't feel at home in the Republican party.

There's no easy realignment of the parties that fixes that.

[mugs99]

That said, I too think it would be a mistake to turn the Republican party into Pat Robertson's party--many good conservatives are not Christians.

Thank you...That is what I wanted to hear.
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[ModelBreaker]

Thank you...That is what I wanted to hear.

Then you should have just said so. (friendly grin here) Your first question, which launched my post on worldviews was, "can Christians be liberals." That is a very interesting question but it necessarily provoked a Christian response based on scripture. That's what I thought you were looking for.

The question you were really asking--"can non-Christians be good conservatives" is easy and requires no theology--only empirical evidence. My brother, who is very dear to me, is one of the most solid conservatives you might ever want to meet and a militant agnostic.

As I said in one of my posts, much of the conservative worldview--particularly its beliefs about human nature--is descended from the Christian worldview. That's why, imho, so many conservatives are Christians and vice-versa.

So, do we all hold hands now and sing Kumbayah? Or would Kumbayah be mixing worldviews? :)

[DeweyCA]

So, are you continuing to beat your wife? Answer me, yes or no. That is the stupidity of your question and you know it. Your simplistic questions are typical of the sloganeering and unnuanced thinking of other Libs. Respond to this if you wish, but I'm not going to respond any more to you. Your simplistic questions are not worth the time it takes for me to respond.

[mugs99]

Then you should have just said so. (friendly grin here)

:)...I see where you're coming from. My question was to DeweyCa who posted the essay by Thomas Brewster. I took the quote, "American liberals seek to destroy Christianity" from the essay and asked him if there are no Christian liberals.

I'm familliar with Brewster and assumed DeweyCa was too since he posted the essay.
In any case, I have no problem with mainstream Christians...like you.

My brother, who is very dear to me, is one of the most solid conservatives you might ever want to meet and a militant agnostic.

That's what makes our Republic great. There's room for all of us. Some seem to think that the RP needs to speak for one specific group of Christians and everyone else can take a hike if they don't like it.

So, do we all hold hands now and sing Kumbayah? Or would Kumbayah be mixing worldviews? :)

LOL! Let's sing!
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