I never said that slavery was the only issue that the South (Confederacy) appealed to.
The other issues were no more legimate for secession then defending slavery was.
Thus, the Southern states had no legimate reason for secession since they still had full access to the political process.
Maybe that point is to complicated for you to grasp?
If you wish to rant about how bad slavery was (beating a dead-horse forever), I don't care. However, when you insist it was the only issue, I feel compelled to correct you.
Once again, never said it was the only issue, so stop appealing to straw man arguments.
You have stated that: The South did not list any grievances. This is a partial truth, some of the states, 4 at least, did. Futhermore, you assume that the states must write down their grievances in order for them to exist.
I follow the view Jefferson that when a government is going to be dissolved the reasons should be stated so a judgement can be made on the rightness of the cause for the ending of that government.
It is understandable that few of the States would want to list their 'noble' grievances, not the deprivation of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but the threat that they might not be able to deprive someone of those rights!
The civil war was not about states rights, but was about slavery. This is also wrong. Since the issues were intertwined, then it was about both. Unfortunately. Slavery was on the way out, the states in the confederacy though that the state had the right to enslave whomever they wished. The issue was states rights vs. human rights. Human rights won.
There is no such thing as a 'right' for a state to keep a human being a slave.
States do not have rights, people do.
The Southern Slave owners lost an election and decided that they would break up the Union over it.
You also state that the South was overrepresented because of the slaves being counted as 3/5 of a person. Your confederate vice president did not see it that way. He may be wrong, but just because you are wrong does not mean you do not have a grievance.
First, it is you defending the Confederate flag, not me, so he would be your Confederate vice President.
Second, counting slaves for the purpose of representation gave the South control of the House far longer then they should have had.
Your strange nationalism with regard to ancient wars is perplexing at best.
The American revolution is not an 'ancient war'.
As far as your assertion that I am an apologist for the confederacy, that is unfounded. Just because someone disputes a factually inaccurate statement does not make them an apologist. If you said Hitler gassed X amount of people, and I stated that Hitler only gassed Y amount of people, that does not make me an apologist for Hitler.
You came on this thread defending the Confederate flag, did you not?
As far as your hatred of an archaic and dead government, that is not the American opinion, because there is no American opinion. People have opinions, not countries.
I would say that an American opinion is one that the majority of Americans hold to, such as the principles found in the Declaration of Independence.
The Confederate Flag is against those principles, and that was the substance of this discussion.
It does not represent freedom, but rather, a fight against freedom.
Once again, choose which flag to honor, you cannot honor both since they are opposed to one another.
People can be attached to one flag for whatever reason and as well as being attached to the US flag. You have no idea what this flag meant to this man. I guess since Georgia fought in against the US in the civil war, the Georgia flag is off limits as well for a proud resident of that state.
I do not believe any State Flag should have the Confederate flag associated with it.
Anyone attached to the Confederate Flag needs to understand what the Confederacy truly represented (slavery) and not the post-Civil War myth of 'states rights'
As far as the party of Lincoln jazz, I will not worship a dead lawyer. I am more worried about the problems of today.
Yea, right.
Honoring great Presidents like Washington and Lincoln is what Americans should do, not worrying about the dead Confederacy's flag.
I will cease responding on this issue at this point, since you will not listen to reason and logic. If you wish to believe that the civil war was only about slavery, then I guess that doesn't harm anyone. Whatever.
And if you wish to appeal to straw man evasions, that is what is to be expected from someone who is defending an indefensible position.
"I never said that slavery was the only issue that the South (Confederacy) appealed to."
From Post # 36: Unlike the American revolution, the South did not list any grievances except they did not like they idea that slavery was going to be limited by the incoming Republican Party.
That is exactly what you said.
"The other issues were no more legimate for secession then defending slavery was."
That is irrelevant, there were other grievances, how legitimate you think they were, or even how factually legitimate they were, does not matter.
"Thus, the Southern states had no legimate reason for secession since they still had full access to the political process."
"Maybe that point is to complicated for you to grasp?"
Your demeaning manner is laughable. You cannot even remove your opinion from statements of fact. You stated they listed no other grievances, I said you were wrong, and now you want to change the subject to the how legitimate the grievances were? LOL
"Once again, never said it was the only issue, so stop appealing to straw man arguments."
Actually you said it was their only listed grievance, which is not accurate at all. In fact, you posted a link to a speech disproving your own thesis! Your idea that the confederacy must sit down and write a list in order to have grievances in listed the historical record is strange indeed.
"I follow the view Jefferson that when a government is going to be dissolved the reasons should be stated so a judgement can be made on the rightness of the cause for the ending of that government."
That is all fine and good. I don't care what view you follow. Jefferson was dead, or he might of wrote it himself. Virgina slaveowner, ya know.
"There is no such thing as a 'right' for a state to keep a human being a slave."
Now there isn't. Morally there never was. At the time in history, whether we like it or not, there was a legal right to do so.
"States do not have rights, people do."
States have powers, that are subservient to the rights of people.
"The Southern Slave owners lost an election and decided that they would break up the Union over it."
Things political are never that simple.
"First, it is you defending the Confederate flag, not me, so he would be your Confederate vice President."
I simply corrected your fallacious assertions. I defended no flags. I defend the fellows right to place the flag of his choice on his truck. You posted the evidence and referred to the vice-president of the confederacy. My vice-president is Cheney. I live in the present.
"The American revolution is not an 'ancient war'."
I was referring the Civil War, you know the one that we have been talking about?
"You came on this thread defending the Confederate flag, did you not?"
Actually, I didn't. I was pointing out a factual problem with your post.
"I would say that an American opinion is one that the majority of Americans hold to, such as the principles found in the Declaration of Independence."
There is no such thing as an American opinion. If you want to say "the majority of American's opinions" then say that.
"The Confederate Flag is against those principles, and that was the substance of this discussion."
No, the substance of this discussion was what the grievances of the confederacy were. You resorted to a broad brush argument to attempt to make me defend the indefensible. Kinda like what liberals do. Your argument consist of Confederacy = bad, so they must not have had any grievances but slavery. My argument is that the South did have more grievances, legitimate or not, and they did not have to resort to writing them down for them to exist.
"Once again, choose which flag to honor, you cannot honor both since they are opposed to one another."
So what? Try to stay on point. Are you saying that this guy should not be able to put the flag on his truck? I will leave that up to him. I am not honoring any confederate flags.
"I do not believe any State Flag should have the Confederate flag associated with it."
I think the people in their respective states can decide that. I will not force my views on the citizens of other states. My state flag has a peace pipe, that is fine with me.
"Anyone attached to the Confederate Flag needs to understand what the Confederacy truly represented (slavery) and not the post-Civil War myth of 'states rights'"
In your simple world, I guess. The Confederate flag represented a sort-lived government that enshrined the pre-civil war American instution of slavery. That is all. You, and people like you, are the ones making an issue of a piece of cloth, or in this case, a piece of tin.
"Honoring great Presidents like Washington and Lincoln is what Americans should do, not worrying about the dead Confederacy's flag."
And who made you arbiture of American behavior? What a joke. I respect their contribution to the country and recognize that they are flawed humans. Thus, I worship no dead lawyers, or farmers, or generals, etc.
"And if you wish to appeal to straw man evasions, that is what is to be expected from someone who is defending an indefensible position."
What is wrong with you? The fact that the confederate states had other grievances than slavery is a well accepted fact. I was going to quit responding, but your accusations about "straw-men" and your own resort to them makes me doubt your very sanity. Perhaps you just can't understand. If any lurkers are reading this, am I arguing with a wall?