San Bernardino deputy to face charge in airman shooting

AP ^ | 3/7/6 | GREG RISLING

[SmithL]

San Bernardino -- A sheriff's deputy videotaped shooting an unarmed Iraq war veteran after a high-speed chase will be charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter, authorities said Tuesday.

The case against Deputy Ivory J. Webb, 45, includes the special allegations of infliction of great bodily injury and use of a firearm, San Bernardino County District Attorney Michael A. Ramos told a news conference. It was the first time the county's prosecutors filed charges against a lawman for an on-duty shooting.

Sheriff Gary Penrod said Webb, a 10-year veteran of the Sheriff's Department, will remain on paid administrative leave as the investigation of the shooting of Air Force Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21, continues.

"I respect the decision of the district attorney's office," Penrod said.

Webb's arraignment was set for Wednesday. If convicted, he could face up to 18 1/2 years in prison.

On Jan. 29, Carrion, an Air Force security officer just back from Iraq, was a passenger in a Corvette that was involved in a high-speed nighttime chase before crashing into a wall in Chino, about 45 miles east of Los Angeles.

A grainy videotape shot by a resident shows Carrion on the ground just outside the car's passenger door and Webb standing nearby, pointing at gun at him. A voice appears to order Carrion to rise. When the airman appears to begin to comply, the deputy shoots him three times.

[Travis McGee]

A DA first shot, with SA follow up shots could be a factor. Once the first goes off (about 10# pull) the following (5#) shots can almost be "sympathetic."

I think the type of gun (and his training, adherence to policy etc) will be huge in this case, on both sides.

[planekT]

Yea, I understand. He fires off a shot and doesn't even realize it was his and then reflexively fires a few more rounds? Could be.

But he's going to have time with what happens after that, where the guy is shot and screaming and groaning and the cop says "f**k you!".

I don't think that was part of his training. :-)

[vrwc0915]

I am 90% sure that the weapon used rhymes with clock

[snuffy smiff]

Are you aware that he was subsequently extradited to Florida for his own traffic violations?

No, I was not. Care to elaborate on that? I got the info re: the 3 stop&searches from the other threads that are posted in #13. Yup, sounds like somebody was trying to obstruct justice along with harassment. And there is no excuse for it.

[1035rep]

First off I'd like to be clear that I am not defending the officer involved except to say that his actions do not fit the classic definition of attempted first degree murder.  The DA should charge him with the crime that best fits his actions and one that would result in a conviction from the jury.  Same goes for a DUI driver that kills another motorist with his vehicle.  He is not charged with first degree murder but manslaughter.  By the way, manslaughter is second degree murder. 

The answer to Sheriff Penrod not making a recommendation was answered in your own post  

"In any type of investigation it is the responsibility of the Sheriff's Department to put together all the facts. ... The district attorney's role is to take those facts and determine whether there is sufficient evidence to issue a criminal complaint. Obviously that was their choice in this investigation," Penrod said Tuesday.

 

It is procedural for an officer to be placed on paid administrative leave because if the jury does not convict the officer he may get his job back and the department must give him back pay plus all benefits and the department would be subject to a law suit.  And you can thank the liberal judges in California for this.

[1035rep]

It was likely a Department issued Glock, however they are allowed to carry other types firearms

[planekT]

I shot a friends DA/SA S&W. I didn't care for it.

I need to correct my post too. I don't think the cop said FU after he shot the airman, I think it was STFU.

[yarddog]

Unlike most, I have always liked da/sa pistols. I like the first shot being long and heavier for safety sake. Also think you could consider the first double action shot as simply a very quick way of cocking the gun for the first single action shot with the bonus that you just might hit the target with that first shot.

A cocked and locked sa is probably the most efficient combat gun but there really is a slight chance that the safety will be accidentally moved to fire.

[freepatriot32]

I want to know what kind of gun it was.

Seeing as how the guy got shot three times at almost point blank range and lived I would almost guarantee you it was a glock 9. 9 mm is almost useless as a self defense weapon unless you get a head shot.

[freepatriot32]

oops I was going to finish the thought but hit post to soon. Premature epostilation happens to the best of us when we get up there in years :-)Anyway i was going to add that not even a head shot garantees a kill with a 9 mm speaking from pesonally expierience.I was standing about ten feet away from a guy about 11 years ago that got into an argument with someone and the guy he was arguing with pulled out a 9 and put it up to the guys head and shot him the guy dropped to the ground and almost immediatly got up again and took the gun out of the guys hand and started beating him with it so badly the shooters face looked a lot like raw hamburger.He was pretty much in a coma and the guy that got shot walked to his car and drove away the shooter had to be carted off in an ambulance the guy that got shot didnt go to the hospital as far as i could ever determine. I was checking the papers and tv news for about a week afterwords and they didnt report any gunshot victims found dead on the side of the road slumped over there steering wheels and no news reports of anyone walking into the hospital with a gunshot wound to the head.So im assuming that he lived and didnt go to the hospital to get the bullet removed.Thats why i will never own a 9 mm if you shoot someonewith it you cant be sure you ll kill him and you could very well end up just really pissing him off. I am partial to .44's myself.

[planekT]

I never shot pistols much. I have a few now because I decided I wanted to learn how to use one.

The DA/SA thing just kind of confused me a little. Two different trigger pulls? Oh, duh!

Could I get used to it? Probably. I think it just went against what I was used to with rifles and shotguns. An initial reaction in other words. My little pea-brain going "wuzupwithat"?

I have a 1911 and a couple of Rugers now (MK II and a III).
Still have a S&W 44 mag that I've had for a couple of decades.

The safety on the 1911 is STIFF, which I think is a good thing. Not much chance of that one coming down without some considerable force. I guess it could get knocked off, but as far as me "accidently" moving it, it ain't gonna happen.

[yarddog]

I always get a little irritated when someone trashes the 9mm. I hae always liked that caliber and think it's record in combat is just fine.

Now if we are talking personal experience, I have never shot anyone. I did have an experience similar to yours except I didn't witness it. A Black guy I was dealing with, was attacked by another. The attacker jumped across the hood of a car, sliding toward my guy. He very quickly shot him in abdomen with a Browning .32 auto. The guy died within a few minutes.

If forced to, I will admit I like the .45 the best but the 9mm is no slouch plus it can carry a lot more rounds.

[planekT]

I do believe the chances of surviving a gun shot tend to go down when the size and power of the cartridge goes up. If it didn't you could safely hunt elephant or cape buffalo with a .22.

I've been accused of having some kind of penis envy for expressing that thought on this forum, but that doesn't bother me much.

I'd be a lot more bothered by some asshole who broke into my house living to visit me and my family on another day in the future to take out his revenge for wounding him.

That said, I have had no problem hunting deer around here with a .222. The range is short, and I have time to place that shot (in the neck works for me).

But under more critical and stressful circumstances, involving a sentient being like a human thug, I'll take whatever advantage I can get, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

From a practical standpoint, it makes sense to me, and not just because of the obvious physics and stress involved.

If you fired one round of buckshot, or emptied a 15 round magazine into some jackass, which makes you look more offensive rather then defensive to the authorities or a Grand Jury who very well might be involved in such a situation?

[yarddog]

The three most important things in caliber effectiveness are 1. bullet placement. 2. energy, and three bullet construction.

Now I agree that caliber is also of some importance.

The greatest elephant hunter of all time and by a good margin was a Scotsman named Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell. He is thought to have killed over 5000.

I read some of his writings and he preferred the lighter calibers such as 6.5 Mannlicher and 7mm Mauser. He also used the long parallel sided fmj bullets, because of their extreme penetration.

Because I am not as good a shot as he was, (he was said to be an exceptional one), I would probably use something like a .458 Win Mag.

I have shot a large number of medium sized animals, varying from maybe 20 to 150 lbs, with a pistol. The 9mm loaded with HP bullets is more effective than a fmj .45 acp., at least on animals of that size.

After having said that, I will admit to liking the 1911 better than any other design with the possible exception of the Browning HP.

[planekT]

...The three most important things in caliber effectiveness are 1. bullet placement. 2. energy, and three bullet construction....

In about that order I imagine. but if you have two or all three of those going for you, the chances of success go up.


...Now I agree that caliber is also of some importance...

One out of the three. Yep.

...The greatest elephant hunter of all time and by a good margin was a Scotsman named Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell. He is thought to have killed over 5000.

I read some of his writings and he preferred the lighter calibers such as 6.5 Mannlicher and 7mm Mauser. He also used the long parallel sided fmj bullets, because of their extreme penetration...

Question. What is a long parallel sided fmj bullet? I know what fmj stands for, but i never heard of long parallel sided.

...Because I am not as good a shot as he was, (he was said to be an exceptional one), I would probably use something like a .458 Win Mag...

Likewise, given my experience and ability, if I could stand the recoil. I wonder how much you would really notice recoil in such a situation?

...I have shot a large number of medium sized animals, varying from maybe 20 to 150 lbs, with a pistol. The 9mm loaded with HP bullets is more effective than a fmj .45 acp., at least on animals of that size...

Bullet construction trumped bullet diameter. No argument here on that. But a larger bullet of similar construction might work too.

...After having said that, I will admit to liking the 1911 better than any other design with the possible exception of the Browning HP...

I respect your opinion on that as well, I know nothing about the Browning HP. It's something I'll look into though. I have heard of it.

I used to ride a 1/4 mile dragbike a long time ago. In racing, it boils down to how much fuel and air you can shove through an engine, and get it to the ground.

You can shove more fuel and air through a larger motor. We might equate that to caliber and cartridge length for our discussion.

The type of fuel you are shoving through it might equate to propellant. Gasoline? alchohol? nitro? Black powder? smokeless powder?

How do you get it to the ground? Tire size? Is the drivetrain up to it? That might equate to the whole gun itself.

Bullet placement. The shortest distance between two points. You will go faster in a drag race if you keep a straight line to the finish. In fact if you cross the line (your lane) you get disqualifed. Or, if it's a shot, you miss!












54 posted on 03/07/2006 8:06:34 PM PST by yarddog

[yarddog]

When small caliber smokeless powder loads began to be used by the World's military, starting in the late 1880's they all used bullets which were really long. The sides of the bullets were straight right up to the tip, which was not a point but rounded.

These bullets were nearly always silver colored and of course were full metal jacket.

When the Germans went to a spitzer, or pointed bullet sometime before WWI, all the other countries eventually followed suit.

These bullets shot much flatter for obvious reasons. They were also lighter in weight.

Those old round nose fmj's would penetrate far far better than the spitzers.

I once tried some of those 160 grain bullets in a Swedish Mauser. They would penetrate any tree I tried them on, and some of them were probably three or four feet in diameter.

That is why Bell used them, because he knew they would penetrate to the brain every time.

[planekT]

Absolutely fascinating! Thank you!

[BurbankKarl]

and you didnt either.

>>>WITHOUT a recommendation? On whose orders? Have you watched the video?

[Lurker]

You already know what it was my friend.

It had to be a Glock. You know, that really safe gun that never goes off unless'n someone pulls the bang bar.

This cop needs a long stretch behind bars and so does every cop that harassed the guy who took the video.

L

[snuffy smiff]

Perhaps the writer of the article could have done a better job-I took it from this:

The Sheriff's Department conducted its own probe and forwarded the results to the district attorney's office Feb. 10 without a recommendation on whether charges should be filed.

that the sheriff could have made a recommendation and simply chose not to. When combined with the last statement( I find it hard to believe that the dept. cannot ever make any recommendation on whether or not to file charges) along the harassment of the videographer after the shooting, PLUS his inferrence that the videotape isn't truthful(sorry, but the tape doesn't lie) this sheriff sounds like he's also a party to the obstruction of justice. This stinks-from the top down.