Which brings to mind "Are you just happy to see me or is that.......
Posted on 02/01/2006 3:42:08 PM PST by John Jorsett
Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models. It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (9.65mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.
The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.
Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.
The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911.
"Ooohhh, a Singer! ..."
They never miss a stitch!
Which brings to mind "Are you just happy to see me or is that.......
Re 155: "wasn't sure exactly how close to 9mm a .357 diameter bullet was."
Actually the old .38 Long Colt was a bit larger in diameter than the modern .38/.357.
It was a soft, hollow based bullet of about .368" (IIRC) and fired through a true .38" bore, relying on the expanding HB bullet to fill the bore and take the rifling, much like a Mine' ball in a Civil War rifle. It was a "heeled" bullet, with a reduced diameter base that fitted into the mouth of the case.
The old .455 Webley used a similar system, which is why the ones converted to .45ACP don't shoot worth a darn.
A .38 Spl. will chamber in a 1901, but won't shoot at all accurately, unless you use a hollow based wadcutter round.
The '01 I used as a teenager in NH was deadly accurate with those, and I once popped a snoweshoe rabbit at about 100 yards with one round. I just had to hold about 2 feet low.
"On the other hand, my pants sometimes fall to the floor ..."
I hate it when that happens!
That's why we wear SUSPENDERS when we age to the "Lapover" physiotype..
Going to the loo under arms can be a challenge; did you hear the one about the undercover cop whose piece went off as he was sitting down, and blew the crapper behind him into a million pieces?
Or the other one who hung his roscoe by the trigger guard on the coathook on the door, only to have it discharge; the recoil made it spin around the hook, and with every turn it pulled the trigger again, making it go full-auto like a pinwheel until the magazine was dry.
Apparently no one was hurt, but the cop probably had some nasty skivvies, and a lotta 'splainin' to do!
Using public facilities presents challenges in that if you use a belt carry, the pistol will tend to gravitate to the floor, where we really don't want it - and it could be seen under the partition, creating a stir.
I generally slip mine out of the holster and lay it in my trousers where I can see it, but no one else can. Try not to make too much noise clearing it, as again it could make the neighbors jittery.
And for gawdsakes, don't do like a buddy of mine who was a local cop at the time did, and shoot himself in the arse with his .380!
Whose big purple bloomers are those hangin' on that bush?
That's one of them pink triangles the AIDS folks have as a symbol. My guess is that Eaker was chasing Barney Frank off his land.
Affirmative on the "Locked"!
I got one of those "airsoft" plastic .45 lookalikes for about $20, and practice my draw / safety swoop with it, popping paper cups and such with little plastic BBs accross my shop.
It's amazing how much that helps when I take the REAL .45 out to the range and blast clays on the berm with it from 7 - 10 yards out, using the instinctive point / extended hipshot method.
But I still use the basic FUNDAMENTALS that I learned when shooting the NRA 2400 competition course in the 8th Army AMTU; just a little bit quicker.
These days I only start using the sights beyond 20 yards or so.
And I can raise the dickens with a gallon paint can out at 100 yds. sitting down, 2-handed, leaning against a post, and holding just a hair of front blade over the top of the rear sight.
I don't doubt any of you here who report combat kills with old slabsides beyond 100 Meters. A good one will do it.
As to the safety pin; thanks; up heah in Maine we do the best we can with what we've got.
And something about that Sys27 puts a little more load on the right suspension strap than some of the aligator clips were designed to hold, and they slip.
A lot of shooters don't appreciate the fact that a lot of reliability in a recoil operated pistol depends on your technique; A .45 has to be "stiffarmed" with wrist and elbow pretty much locked, while a revolver generally likes a bit more of a relaxed stance and grip.
If you "take up recoil", the slide may not come back far enough and it will "jam".
I've heard of an instance where one shooter would constantly shoot "keyholes" - his bullets were going through the target sideways.
Any other shooter could fire the same pistol just fine.
It turned out that by some fluke, the chap was "breaking" his grip just as the bullet exited the muzzle, tipping it out of it's axis and sending it tumbling end over end.
And it happened with about every shot.
How weird is that?
But if an auto pistol is balking, it might not be the gun or ammo's fault; let a few other pistolleros shoot it and see what happens.
Also, a new autogun usually has to be "broken in" with about 500 to 1000 rounds before it becomes 100% reliable, and not many of them are totally good to go out of the box.
G10.
Here's the link.
http://www.davidsonknives.com/grips/grips.htm
I didn't know where my son, Shawn had ordered the grips until the girlfriend mentioned to him where she lives. She could walk to the guy's house. Lucky me but I don't have anything that needs that expense.
"Offended?"
Not at all...war is for warriors not metrosexuals from the Vilage sipping espresso.
.45 for ever - 9mm never...
Not sure if you are right or not about the official size but I just measured the bullet from a .38 Long Colt Case. It measures exactly .357.
You are right about the hollow base. The bullet does have a cavernous cavity in the base. It actually looks like a small mini ball.
I was surprised how little powder was in the case. It looks like bullseye but is old and black.
I put the bullet nose down back in the case and photographed the base. Hard to see but there is a big hole there. That is a few flakes of powder to the left.
I use factory equivalent loads for practice and load a little hotter for my carry load. I also carry a .45 long colt wheel gun with hollow points, which has good stopping power but is not quite as accurate as the .44 special, at least in my gun, but at defense ranges it doesn't really matter as long as it shoots decently, IMO.
I'm saving your entire post, and am going to forward it to my dad as I think he'd love to read it as well. Thank you for putting it into terms I can understand. Sometimes I try to follow these threads and I get delirious. :D
If you think the recoil is bad, wait until it explodes in your hand. Ducking and deploying flame resistors.
Sorry, but I didn't notice the weapon.
I have a Kimber Kustom Karry 1911 best oob pistol I have ever owned shoots rings around my customized Springfield Armory .45, my friend G Gordon calls it "Condition 3" (cocked and locked)good idea with the softair I will get one tomorrow...(the diff between the men and boyz...)
Re your #202:
Gawrsh; I know that a .45 kicks a little, but how do ya git 'em to vibrate like that?
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