Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
I think that if John remarries and doesn't have kids, then I think the new mom would be good.
I think the odds are against the new mom loving her daughter like her own child if the new mom has her own children.
If I was in the same situation, I wouldn't chance it. Women change once they have babies.
I am biased here a lot by listening to Dr. Laura. People always call in about stuff like this. She's always talks about this kind of thing on her show, and she says it ususally isn't a good thing.
I think the key to what you were saying is that you were grown. You didn't have someone else trying to raise you that wasn't your own biological parent.
It would sure take a special woman.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The worst scenerio for a child is a single parent home. A child needs a mother and a father if at all possible.
I wasn't all the way grown... I was 14. The worst, most impossible, unreasonable, unlikable age there is ;~D But I was accepted as an integral part of the new marriage.
I disagree with Dr. Laura on this. It's one of those issues she is a ramrod about that there is no cut and dried 'one" answer for. Clearly, the way a prospective wife bonded with JohnOs daughter should be a major criteria for whether it was a good match.
Well, it seems you've had practical experience, and I haven't. It's always better to hear someone's real experience because they usually know better.
But I will add that your step-dad must have been a very special man!
Fair enough,
I'll ignore you too.
Like that'll be hard ;)
He was. Both he and my mom are gone now, but I'm soooo glad she had him.
Great response.
I agree with you to a certain degree...
but I was writing from a female perspective.
We can love two ways,
because we talk ourselves into doing it....
and just because it's there....we know that they are right from almost the first moment.
I've done both.
I'll never, ever, ever talk myself into it again. Choosing works for some people, but for others, it's choosing hell for both parties.
I'm looking for a younger man too. Men my age are such fuddy duddies :) ;)
1.My women patients say they "don't really like men, but find that they need them around."
2.Why is it that so many men won't commit?
Two utterances by a female social worker "psychotherapist," about ten minutes apart, with no sign of the faintest recognition of the implications of what she had just said.
Of course I'd rather be elsewhere....but I've got stuff I'm doing here....I actually do contribute to society...sometimes from here.
And I have to mutitask to keep my mind occupied.
Sugar, YOU labled me a feminist. All the rage you feel for me is in your own head darlin'.
OK, OK,
You're right,
I'm on the board of NOW, I have a dart board with Bruce Willis on it, I look like Tom Seleck in drag, I don't shave my legs, all my dogs are lesbians, all my male cats are castrated, I only eat tofu, I hug trees and I infiltrated FR to destroy the Republic!
How'm I doin' so far?
Because they want a power differential in their marriage. They want a lesser, not a partner.
Concern over a "power differential" in an intimate relationship is the first sign of socialist distortion and feminist contamination. It reveals a failure to comprehend that some of the best relationships are complementary, not symmetrical. The archetype of a "symmetrical" relationship is an arms race--where the "power differential" is minimal. Sort of like what happened with WWII "partners" US and USSR.
And it's also true that controlling, dominating personalities often choose meeker, weaker 'partners' that won't give them any 'trouble'.
You have an odd idea for what the purpose of a forum is. :~D
Meanwhile, you're just like a belligerant drunk at the end of the bar, ranting away at anyone within earshot. I think dear, that you are the screeching one :~D
I'd like to hear conservative women who now know better, decry the ravages of feminism themselves. I'd like to hear them comment on what it has been like. On how poorly feminists have treated them. On how said feminists do not speak for said conservative women, and never have. I'd like somebody, I really don't much care who, to acknowledge the truly awful and unjust things said of and done to modern men in America, in the name of this ridiculous heresy. I'd like to hear some hearty assigning of blame from those who can hold themselves blameless in the matter, and some hearty contrition from those who can't.
I'd like to hear some acknowledgement of the errors of ways of the recent past, and too much so still of the present. I'd like to hear some genuine reform, some swearing up and down not to do it again. I'd like somebody to acknowledge how world historically reckless and selfish and stupid it has all been, and who has paid the highest price for it. (I mean of course our children).
And if instead I hear about how any of that makes some harridan want some more aspirin, then I want to hear a rousing chorus from conservatives everywhere, kicking said harridan to the curb. I'd even like to hear an I'm sorry for two from said harridans themselves. Not to me, to the world at large for the ravages of the feminism they so lightly and thoughtlessly defend. My wishes, however, are not horses. I breath normally. And I defy them all.
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