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Raising the volume on what men think about feminism
The Age ^ | Sushi Das

Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway

SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.

'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."

If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.

Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"

And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."

The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.

I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.

In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,

but how many can really be blamed on feminism?

Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.

On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.

Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.

Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.

With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: feminism; genderwars; hemangirlhatersclub; jealouswimminsequel; men; sexes; women
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To: linda_22003
I'm guessin' you haven't been out for a good long time. There's probably a calculation factor in there as well based on how many tattoos both you and the female in question possess, as well as how many teeth (between you). ;-D

No tatoos, all my teeth, BS in Math from Big Ten school, former Army Officer, successfully self-employed...

Yup I gave up on American women a while ago. Haven't seen a reason to change my mind in over 10 years. When an American woman does more in a conversation than quiz me on my career and earning potential I'll let you know. :-)

401 posted on 01/11/2006 9:04:32 AM PST by GreenOgre (mohammed is the false prophet of a false god.)
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To: John O
Spare me the lectures, John O.

Women are raped by men, figuratively and in other ways.

One of the many people I spent Christmas with was a woman I've known ALL my adult life, whose husband cheated on her and lost EVERYTHING they owned. She and her four children had to move into an apartment, and she, a stay-at-home mom all her life, had to go to work full-time. She and her husband divorced. The children, who are teenagers, don't speak to him at their won choosing they are so angry. I've known the husband since we were children, and love him dearly. I don't know what he was thinking, but they lost EVERYTHING. He lost, his children lost and his wife lost.

Four years ago, one of the prettiest women I know, (who worked part time), with two of the most adorable boys you ever did see, woke up one morning to find her husband gone and bank accounts with thousands of dollars, cleaned out. Her father stepped in to give her a hand as the husband predicted he would. She lost everything but her house.

Women risk big time when they marry too. They too can lose it all.

And we haven even touched upon the single men who leave pregnant women in the lurch and REFUSE to pay child-support. Or women who are physically raped and stalked by men and what it costs them. The list goes on and on.

As I said previously, both men and women can come out the losers because of their relationships with one another, and both deserve our support, love and empathy.

You are concerned ONLY about men and have displayed absolutely NO sympathy for women. Your comments about women reveal just the kind of man you are, and you sir are neither FAIR or a gentleman.

402 posted on 01/11/2006 9:04:34 AM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: Diplomat

Oh - I won't do the math, I promise. :~D Congratulations!

No - my husband doesn't post on my account, he has his own :~D I can't explain the confusion except I know my name doesn't sound exactly feminine. You aren't the only one to start out thinking I'm a guy till I give it away.


403 posted on 01/11/2006 9:07:17 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: HairOfTheDog
It's a political forum, not a private men's club to bitch about women.

YES!!!! The above deserves to be repeated again and again.

404 posted on 01/11/2006 9:08:44 AM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: GreenOgre; Freebird Forever
If a man wants to have a stable family with a woman who will take care of him and value the family more than the dollar, then looking in a place where he can find such a woman only makes sense. I simply don't date unless I intend to use a woman for sex. American women, in general, aren't worth the time and effort to build a relationship with. Even spending $50.00 on dinner and drinks on an American woman is a waste of money.

Just lovely...

Freebird Forever, here's the thing about the mail order bride phenomenon in a nutshell. Bitter loveless men seeking a vagina that can vacuum.

I feel sorry for them.

405 posted on 01/11/2006 9:09:37 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: HairOfTheDog
I feel sorry for them.

There is nothing to feel sorry about. We make choices in life. I chose to minimize the risk having my children/house/freedom taken away by a woman who believes money is more important than family. AGAIN!! I made a poor choice when I proposed to my first wife. If I decide to get married again I will do everything I can to minimize making the same mistake.

If as you state men looking overseas for wives are seeking a vagina with a vacuum then you have a demonstrated low opinion of the stay at home mom/housewife. You just made many enemies on FR.

406 posted on 01/11/2006 9:26:31 AM PST by GreenOgre (mohammed is the false prophet of a false god.)
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To: GreenOgre

I'm sorry you've apparently got reason to be so bitter. I'm a second wife, myself, and my husband (military at the time) had also been divorced with Extreme Prejudice. Perhaps the fact that she died shortly after her remarriage helped to ease the bitterness for him, and opened him to the idea of a new relationship. However it happened, we're going to celebrate - and I mean celebrate! - twenty years of marriage in September.


407 posted on 01/11/2006 9:42:30 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: TAdams8591
Women are raped by men, figuratively and in other ways.

Some (a small percentage)women are indeed raped by some men. Almost every man in divorce or child custody cases gets raped by the court system. It's evil on both sides. (And one sin does not justify the other)

... (cheating husband stories)...

I can trade you stories all day long. Bet I can come up with more men who lost everything than you can women. I wouldn't even have to leave this site to get 50 or more. But that would be counter-productive.

As I said previously, both men and women can come out the losers because of their relationships with one another, and both deserve our support, love and empathy.

I've always agreed with this

You are concerned ONLY about men and have displayed absolutely NO sympathy for women. Your comments about women reveal just the kind of man you are, and you sir are neither FAIR or a gentleman.

Now this is where I lose you. How have I shown sympathy only for men and what kind of comments about women have I made that make me unfair and ungentlemanly. Have I attacked anyone on this thread? Have I used foul language? Have I done anything but speak what I see as the truth?

Also why do you keep attacking me (as in the above paragraph) but not telling me why you are attacking? TAadams8591, I know that you've been hurt. But I'm not the one that did it.

408 posted on 01/11/2006 9:44:25 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: GreenOgre

On the contrary, I think they'd agree with me on what you're looking for, and they want no part of it. Hence your search overseas. :~D

Look - maybe you're a nice guy who uses this forum to 'vent' as FF says. But something tells me you've got some serious garbage in your head.

Women are just people GreenOgre. As varied as men are.


409 posted on 01/11/2006 9:47:49 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: HairOfTheDog

You're still here darlin'!?!?

Bless your heart for carrying the standard and fighting the Bitter Boy Dragons.

Don't fret, you'll always have way more friends that enemys.


410 posted on 01/11/2006 9:50:16 AM PST by najida (When I'm good, I'm very very good, and when I'm bad, things get broken.)
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To: najida

Well, I don't like it when I lose my temper like that :~D


411 posted on 01/11/2006 9:51:05 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: linda_22003
When Joan Rivers was still doing standup, she used to ask to look at the rings of the women in the front rows. She would diagnose from the size of the stone whether the woman was a First Wife or Second (or more) Wife, and I don't think she was ever wrong.

??? Most first wives marry their husbands when they and their husbands are young and poor. What's wrong with that?

My wife has a little tiny diamond on her engagement ring, which I gave her when I was just a few months out of grad school with barely a penny to my name.

Could I buy her a bigger one? A much bigger one? One big enough to make you think she was my fourth wife? Of course, but she wouldn't want it.

And that's part of the reason why I married her.

412 posted on 01/11/2006 9:52:05 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Warren_Piece
"I always do two things before turning out the light: read the Bible, and laugh about something."

That sounds like a very good way to end the day.
413 posted on 01/11/2006 9:56:42 AM PST by Ninian Dryhope ("Bush lied, people dyed. Their fingers." The inestimable Mark Steyn)
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To: Campion

That's fine. I'm just saying that it's predictable. :)


414 posted on 01/11/2006 9:59:11 AM PST by linda_22003
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To: John O
"I can trade you stories all day long. Bet I can come up with more men who lost everything than you can women. I wouldn't even have to leave this site to get 50 or more."

The above well proves my point. If you were HONEST and FAIR you would NEVER have made the above statement. YOU are part of the problem, John O.

Go find the womb to produce your children. And be sure to explain to the owner of that womb, that it and the children it bears, is more important than she is. You and men like you can stay the heck away from me.

415 posted on 01/11/2006 9:59:24 AM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
here's the thing about the mail order bride phenomenon in a nutshell. Bitter loveless men seeking a vagina that can vacuum

Besides being untrue that statement is remarkably crass.

Every time we meet on one of these threads I come away with the impression that you don't understand what motivates men at all.

One thing that the foreign brides have going for them is respect. Their cultures still teach that the wife is to respect the husband. Now it may not sound like much but to a man respect is everything. Just as a woman needs to be loved and seen as attractive in her husband's eyes a man NEEDS to be respected by his wife.

This respect shows up in lots of ways. Everything from honoring his decisions to fixing his dinner (of course some households will differ as to who cooks etc) Basically doing things for him to show she loves him.

With few exceptions if a woman treats her man like a king he will treat her better than a queen. I've seen men go to huge lengths to spoil a woman who treats them right. I've done it for my wife. She was severly spoiled (her parents think I spoiled her too much) but she was worth it. She respected me.

The second outcome of a woman respecting her man is that he will work harder to be worthy of that respect. It's a automatic subconscious thing.

Fortunately there are still Christian women in this country who have been raised to respect their husbands. Otherwise I'd go foreign too. Most big city American women (and all liberal women) have bought the feminist line and thus have become unmarriable.

416 posted on 01/11/2006 10:00:35 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Nea Wood

Just a comment....

All the females in my family married older men...
Parents= 13 years difference
Grandparents= 15 years
Halfsister/Hubby= 17 years
and yes I,

married a man 22 years older.

None of us divorced, (didn't believe in it), all widowed (cept for half sis) but none of us had or will remarry.

All of us, when alone agreed that marrying an older man was the biggest mistake of our lives. I was warned by mother, half-sister and indirectly by granny, but I didn't listen.

You'll find your tastes in music, literature, recreation etc are totally different..... Any trip you want to take will be met with "Been there, done that, don't want to do it again". Etc.... So instead of him living 'younger' you live 'older'. Activties are modified for his wishes and needs.

Especially since, and this is my personal observations, men don't age as healthy as most women. So you find yourself in total caregiver mode way before your friends even think about it....Oh yeah, and don't get me started on the insecurity about you working with or being around men in your age group. Markedly since about the time they hit there biggest sexual slump, you hit your peak.

So to any chickies out there who have romantacized it in your head....you might as well open a vein in front of a vampire. Your youth is sucked away.... Don't do it.

I'm happier now dating men my age or slightly younger. I highly recommend it :)


417 posted on 01/11/2006 10:04:37 AM PST by najida (When I'm good, I'm very very good, and when I'm bad, things get broken.)
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To: John O
You know what I can't figure out on this child custody issue as presented on FR? Why it doesn't resemble any of the situations I know in real life.

I know divorced people. Very few had their custody or child support arrangements imposed by a court. While they were splitting up, they worked out as best they could a situation that was as mutually tolerable as they could. Most of the time, the woman has custody more often than dad, but truth be told, most dads (and I do know one exception) wouldn't trade places if they could. They don't want to do getting ready for work and school and day care and grocery shopping with kids in tow. Most divorced dads I know have the kids as much as they want to, primarily on weekends. They send what the kid needs and work out between them who pays what. It ain't perfect, but they work it out without a court mandate.

When my own parents split up, I was a teenager. I moved freely between both of my parents, and my needs were met by their mutual agreement. There was never a court mandating anything. My parents were fair and NEVER undermined each other. They respected each other so much in divorce it's a wonder they couldn't have stayed married.

I do know one former couple (never married) who did have more rancor and court involvement, but neither one was remotely reasonable at the time, they were too bitter toward one another.

So it makes me wonder, if this myth about men losing everything and never seeing their kids isn't just a lot of internet gnashing of teeth. I don't know ONE dad who doesn't see his kids, and while support can be high, and certainly is a burden, it hasn't kept them from going on with life, nor should there be no cost to a divorced parent.
418 posted on 01/11/2006 10:04:54 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: HairOfTheDog

You lost your temper!?!

I didn't notice. Really, you seemed on top of your game.

These threads are a war zone. Vent my azz, it's a bloodbath.


419 posted on 01/11/2006 10:06:22 AM PST by najida (When I'm good, I'm very very good, and when I'm bad, things get broken.)
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To: John O

"One thing that the foreign brides have going for them is respect. Their cultures still teach that the wife is to respect the husband. Now it may not sound like much but to a man respect is everything. Just as a woman needs to be loved and seen as attractive in her husband's eyes a man NEEDS to be respected by his wife."

Guess what? Women need respect, too. You might recall Aretha Franklin singing a song about it. So would you rather have automatic respect because a woman has it instilled in her by her culture that men are superior (and can set you on fire if you anger them), or have respect from your wife because you've earned it, and she has yours because she has earned it? I know how my marriage works, at any rate. :)


420 posted on 01/11/2006 10:08:48 AM PST by linda_22003
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