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I don't think people realize the seriousness of this, and how much this will hurt our war on terror.

The entire Congress should be fired, they want to protect the terrorists, at the expense of the lives of potentially thousands of innocent Americans.

1 posted on 12/15/2005 1:14:04 AM PST by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion

EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS -- THE ACTUAL TEXT, GIVING THE TERRORIST DETAINEES FULL RIGHTS AND PROTECTION OF THE US CONSTITUTION ANYWHERE, EVEN OUTSIDE THE US AND CREATING US LAW BASED ON THE UN.

THIS IS WHAT THE US CONGRESS IS MAKING LAW:

(a) In General.--"No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

(b) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.

(c) Limitation on Supersedure.--The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.

(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term ``cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984. "


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Here is the link to the Senate vote, you can go from there via the link on that page to the actual text, but for some reason, when I put in the direct link to the text it gives me an error.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00249


2 posted on 12/15/2005 1:21:36 AM PST by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion

Assuming this crap passes both houses, can't the President just stick it in a drawer and not sign it?


12 posted on 12/15/2005 2:00:17 AM PST by Beckwith (The liberal press has picked sides ... and they have sided with the Islamofascists)
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To: FairOpinion
The reason that we take so many terrorist leaders alive is for possible exploitation of their knowledge of pending attacks.

The unintended consequence of this law is that we're going to stop taking the senior leadership alive. Pretty much every single mid level leader we take knows that all he has to do is shut up and say 'I'm not telling you anything', because all we can do is ask them questions for a few hours a day. Consequently, we don't get much out of those guys. It was only the really high ups that were in any danger of rendition, and it was for them that the gloves came off.

No terrorist leader afforded the full protection of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is ever, ever going to break in interrogation. It won't happen. This means that there's no real incentive for us to catch these guys alive. Capturing them is considerably more difficult than killing them, and the risk to do so is now no longer worth the effort.

That is unfortunate, because we're going to lose what little HUMINT we had. As gratifying as it can be to see terrorists wake up to a 500lb alarm clock, it's always with a sense of loss. You can't help but wonder what attacks they were planning, and you find yourself wishing that we had taken them alive to find out what they knew. Now, every interrogator will be in terror of being personally prosecuted under this extremely subjective law, and won't so much as raise his voice to any detainee we have. Our HUMINT collection is about to slow to a quiet trickle.

14 posted on 12/15/2005 2:05:29 AM PST by Steel Wolf (* No sleep till Baghdad! *)
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To: FairOpinion

This all so subjective..
What is torture? Naked Twister???
What is degrading? If I say that I do not like you?

It is really crazy to write a bill such as this.


30 posted on 12/15/2005 2:55:25 AM PST by AlexW (Reporting from Bratislava, Slovakia)
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To: FairOpinion

I disagree with McCain's bill because of its absolutism, but I blame the administration for not taking the lead in the argument about torture and interrogation. By adbicating that responsibility and by playing stupid semantic games, they all but invited this reaction.


33 posted on 12/15/2005 3:06:56 AM PST by Zeroisanumber
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To: FairOpinion
If nothing else, this should prove the congress is actively working to destroy this country.

When you tie the hands of soldiers, THEY CAN NOT FIGHT FOR YOU!

If a man has information you need to save a life, it's incredibly stupid to promise him he will not be made uncomfortable. It GUARANTEES his silence and AMERICAN DEATHS!

Congratulations congress scum, you've got the blood of dead Americans all over your hands with this abortion of legislation. I hope you're proud of your moral high ground. It should give you a perfect view as our men are decapitated by those you have protected.
35 posted on 12/15/2005 3:11:04 AM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (Whats with the Marquis of Queensbury Rules bullsh*t, we fight for our very survival! Fight Dirty!)
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To: FairOpinion

As distastful as it sounds, I now understand why Rome went from a republic to an Empire.


36 posted on 12/15/2005 3:12:20 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" R. A. Heinlein)
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To: FairOpinion

This needs to be the first veto from Pres. Bush. It's for our children.


43 posted on 12/15/2005 3:23:58 AM PST by kittymyrib
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To: FairOpinion
Guys, it this bill passes into law, let's get this law declared unconstitutionally on the grounds it favors terrorists and gives more rights to terrorists in that bill does not protect U.S. citizens from such interrogation 'techniques'.
45 posted on 12/15/2005 3:25:01 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: FairOpinion

If the terrorists will agree not to use cruel killing techniques, then this would be Queen's rules war.

Jerks.


47 posted on 12/15/2005 3:25:45 AM PST by Glenn (What I've dared, I've willed; and what I've willed, I'll do!)
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To: FairOpinion
Guess re-elections are coming up and they believe that if they don't vote this way it will hurt their chances. Has absolutely nothing to do with what is good for this country and its citizens.
58 posted on 12/15/2005 3:37:27 AM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: FairOpinion
Did they outlaw the bacon grease enema?
59 posted on 12/15/2005 3:38:51 AM PST by wolfcreek
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To: FairOpinion

The Bad Guys do not play by "The Rules."

This is the lesson that everybody should have taken away from Vietnam.

Is anybody in Washington listening?


61 posted on 12/15/2005 3:41:01 AM PST by DieHard the Hunter (I am the Chieftain of my Clan. I bow to nobody. Get out of my way.)
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To: FairOpinion
The interrogation process will be "privatized"! No government intrusion into the process! McCain has hurt this country immensely!
67 posted on 12/15/2005 3:47:47 AM PST by Road Warrior ‘04 (Kill 'em til they're dead! Then, kill 'em again!)
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To: FairOpinion
I don't think people realize the seriousness of this, and how much this will hurt our war on terror.

The President has said we don't condone or use torture, the Vice-President has said we don't condone or use torture, the Secretary of State has said we don't condone or use torture. This is just applying what they said. Isn't it?

71 posted on 12/15/2005 3:57:48 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: FairOpinion

Another article with more detail, read it and weep.



House vote backs McCain language on torture
A clear message to the administration that Congress supports the legislation

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/15/MNGADG892M1.DTL


Rep. Walter Jones Jr., R-N.C., was among the many conservative Republicans who voted for Murtha's motion. He said in an interview that experts have told lawmakers that harsh interrogation methods often produce misleading or false misinformation because the detainee "will tell you what he thinks you want to hear" to end the pain.

Jones said he believed extreme interrogation tactics resulted in some of the bad intelligence that led the administration to believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the invasion.

McCain's language is stalling the Defense Authorization bill, a policy-setting measure, as the White House continues to negotiate for exceptions and legal protection for interrogators who might unwittingly cross the proposed new lines

Despite McCain's unwavering stance, the White House continues to push for some level of exemption for officials working in the U.S. intelligence services and most specifically the CIA. Sources familiar with the negotiations said Wednesday that McCain and Hadley's one-on-one meetings over the past month had centered on the White House's request for some level of legal protection from liability for CIA operatives should they be found in violation of the standards.

Such an exception would allow interrogators to use a defense that a "reasonable person" would not have thought their actions were illegal, similar to military laws about following orders.


73 posted on 12/15/2005 4:01:12 AM PST by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion
That leaves only one choice when fighting terrorists. Kill them. They are not worth trying to capture alive, thereby risking solder's lives further for any possible intelligence gathering.
76 posted on 12/15/2005 4:26:53 AM PST by Forte Runningrock
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To: FairOpinion

77 posted on 12/15/2005 4:28:37 AM PST by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: FairOpinion

I'm proud to say my Congressman Vito Fossella 13th NY, Staten Island voted No!
God bless you Vito!


82 posted on 12/15/2005 5:13:33 AM PST by jmaroneps37 (We will never murtha to the terrorists. Bring home the troops means bring home the war.)
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To: FairOpinion
A$$ H@!es is all I can say. I see my Rep Peter King voted NO. Too bad Ackerman and McCarthy also from LI voted Yes.

Mark Levin had the best speech on this matter yesterday. He said that every slip and fall lawyer is drooling over the prospect of suing interrogators. Can't these people, who represent us, realize the effect of this will be bigger than any Gorelick Wall? Have they asked Americans?

The interrogators are human. If they have to watch how far they can go and question their every move we are in trouble. OBL must be laughing his A$$ off.

84 posted on 12/15/2005 6:26:28 AM PST by AmericaUnite
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