Posted on 12/05/2005 4:06:56 AM PST by PatrickHenry
Indeed. Since it is not a scientific theory, there isn't any way to do butkus to it, using the scientific method.
But in the same Wistar symposium publication, C. H. Waddington (in his "Summary Discussion") hits the nail so square on the head that I will quote his remarks at great length:
The point was made that to account for some evolutionary changes in hemoglobin, one requires about 120 amino acid substitutions...as individual events, as though it is necessary to get one of them done and spread throughout the whole population before you could start processing the next one...[and] if you add up the time for all those sequential steps, it amounts to quite a long time. But the point the biologists want to make is that that isn't really what is going on at all. We don't need 120 changes one after the other. We know perfectly well of 12 changes which exist in the human population at the present time. There are probably many more which we haven't detected, because they have such slight physiological effects...[so] there [may be] 20 different amino acid sequences in human hemoglobins in the world population at present, all being processed simultaneously...Calculations about the length of time of evolutionary steps have to take into account the fact that we are dealing with gene pools, with a great deal of genetic variability, present simultaneously. To deal with them as sequential steps is going to give you estimates that are wildly out." (pp. 95-6)
This is also true of the explanation that is supposed to refute ID. Be careful, that sword cuts both ways.
Perhaps if you dispensed with the ad hominem attacks you would see clear enough to notice you just said you "voted for the budget before you voted against it" - figuratively speaking
I do not need to reconcile these statements because they are not in conflict.
As Cleopatra once said "Denial runs deep"
You stated science does not make base assumptions there can only be material explanations - then you said science makes base assumption there can only be material explanations because that is science's realm of competence. Two completely contradictory statements.
I'll not be answering the rest of your post because I don't understand it,
I see, time to dive for the tall grass.
Science isn't in the business of refuting ID. I would guess that a slight majority of scientists probably think ID is true, at this point. The vast majority of all scientists, however, would not for a moment think that ID has even begun to put its money where its mouth is in terms of putting up a theory with sufficient detail to provide for a single falsifiable test of any significant practical scientific viability. It took discrepencies in the perhilion of mercury to take Einstein's theory off the drawing board. No such equivalent test has even been proposed for ID, much less been performed.
Sometimes an insult is an ad homonem--as when it is in place of a relevant answer to an argument. Sometimes an insult is just an insult that's well deserved because one persists in being dense as a stump when something pretty simple is explained to you over and over in progressively simpler terms, and you insist on flopping around like an alligator in heat instead of thinking about what's being said to you. -- figuratively speaking.
Sounds good to me. The adventure is in the journey, not the destination as far as abiogenesis is concerned.
Are mathematical formulas "detectable"? I think you are trying to imply science is based on the dogma of empiricism which is simply not true. There is empirical science and there is theoretical science.
Explanations in terms of as yet indetectable stuff, such as God, or ID or string theory or continental drift, or a relative universe, have to eventually put up or shut up in terms of detectability.
So since string theory is undetectable therefore it is considered supernatural just as God? (actually you may be closer than you think). As for your "put up or shut up" statement - that is illogical - basic Aristotelian logic demonstrates absence of data is proof of nothing.
The only claim science makes about indectable causes, such as God or ID, is that it doesn't know squat.
So you are claiming science does not know squat about anything that cannot be "detected"? What about theoretical science?
ID is every bit as detectable as the evolution-based explanations that are supposed to refute it.
since it seems to bear repeating in formal philosophical vocabulary: philosophical materialism holds that material is all there is. Neither science nor I advance this claim, no matter how hard you squint in order to see the use of the word "material" as a claim to formal philosophical materialism.
More denial. This is your definition of science:
donh(672): Science concerns itself with material explanations of material phenomenon, because that's the function of science.
You claim all science all can do is create material explanations of material phenomenon.
This is the definition of materialism:
Materialism is the philosophical view that the only thing that can truly be said to 'exist' is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of 'material' and all phenomena are the result of material interactions.
Like it or not - deny all you like - your definition of science and the definition of materialism are identical. I don't doubt you do not fully understand your definition of science is rooted in the dogma of Materialism - but it is. Your concept of science starts with a material assumption. That is the dogma of Materialism. Science should not start out with any a priori assumptions other than man exists and is capable of rational thought. Understand that neither you nor science has proved all that exists is material therefore holding an assumption like that is dogma - not a scientific conclusion.
Finally we agree. Now just tell that to all the Evo's that claim ID has been refuted.
I would guess that a slight majority of scientists probably think ID is true, at this point.
Well, that statement was unexpected.
The vast majority of all scientists, however, would not for a moment think that ID has even begun to put its money where its mouth is in terms of putting up a theory with sufficient detail to provide for a single falsifiable test of any significant practical scientific viability.
All right - what's going on here? I agree 100% but would also like to note that natural selection is not falsifiable.
It took discrepencies in the perhilion of mercury to take Einstein's theory off the drawing board. No such equivalent test has even been proposed for ID, much less been performed.
Darn, you have ruined this entire debate - I completely agree with you.
More ad homenem attacks with a little childish logic added for flavor. So you try to justify ad homenem attacks by claiming they are justified because I don't agree with your side of the argument - OH THE IRONY!
Like it or not - deny all you like - your definition of science and the definition of materialism are identical. I don't doubt you do not fully understand your definition of science is rooted in the dogma of Materialism - but it is. Your concept of science starts with a material assumption. That is the dogma of Materialism. Science should not start out with any a priori assumptions other than man exists and is capable of rational thought. Understand that neither you nor science has proved all that exists is material therefore holding an assumption like that is dogma - not a scientific conclusion.
Maybe if you can come up with a way to measure the weight of love, or the chirality of a miracle, or the voltage of an equation, then science can deal with the nonmaterial. But until that happens, donh is exactly right: Phenomena that are unconnected somehow to the material world are forever outside of science's competence.
Darwinian evolution is accepted by FAITH; it not true science that can be tested in any laboratory. It is a belief system, not science.
"Darwinian evolution is accepted by FAITH; it not true science that can be tested in any laboratory. It is a belief system, not science."
Everything you just said is 100% wrong. Not that you care about the truth. :)
It seems to me that if this is the way materialism is defined, the science today is not materialist nor has it been for a very long time.
Having glanced through that, I see I won't be buying ReMine's book. Thanks.
Like who. All I remember reading in this thread is that ID ain't a science, which, until it manages to propose a doable experiment, is plainly obvious.
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