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To: andysandmikesmom
....the biggest example is when the IDers constantly state, as a fact, that evolution states that men descended from monkeys...in spite of the fact that they have been told time and time again, that evolution says no such thing and have been given numerous links to show them how wrong they are, they continue to spread the same lie over and over again...

I am not sure why you evos make such a big deal over this. Whether evolution states that we have a common ancestor with chimps or apes or whether we descended from them is a trivial difference to make such a big deal over.

It is quite obvious that you are using that trivial difference as part of your Clinton like scorched earth policy to discredit someone as a liar who is saying something not that different from what your are saying and focusing on a trivial difference rather than dealing with the common descent assumption directly.

It may be a great political technique but has nothing to do with anything but politics and personal attacks.
216 posted on 11/08/2005 2:42:45 PM PST by microgood
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To: microgood; andysandmikesmom
You have a point. The "not descended from monkeys/apes" thing has always seemed to me a bait-and-switch dodge to appease those horrified by the thought of ape/monkey ancestry. Faunal succesion doesn't go away by such arguments.

It is true that evolutionists don't think humans descended directly from any modern species of ape or monkey. They DO think that if you trace the human lineage backward in time (say, with a time machine), you come to something very chimp-like which would unquestionably be called an ape. If you go back farther, the apes get more primitive looking until they really aren't apes anymore, but monkeys. Not any particular modern monkey species, but something which would have to be classified as a monkey.

And it gets "worse," of course. Eventually, our line disappears into primitive-looking mammals, then mammal-like reptiles, then basal reptiles, then amphibians, then fish, then primitive chordates, then primitive bilateran multicellulars, then colonials, then simple eukaryote unicellulars, etc. Each of these things in its day was as "advanced" as anything got.

219 posted on 11/08/2005 2:58:24 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: microgood

I consider what you say to be nonsense...lying is lying, and you know it...its not trivial, but if just a little lie is ok with you, then so be it...it is not a trivial matter...IDers use that 'monkey' word, I believe, because it is more of a buzzword, more likely to repulse people, rather than saying 'common ancestor'...it is an outright lie, to say that evolution states that man descended from monkeys..but if you are happy and accepting of that lie, then, like I said, be happy in your 'little' lie...

And I notice that you just had to throw in Clinton...another lame attempt to use buzzwords...well, it wont work...

Its not a personal attack to point out when someone lies...if you think that, I feel sorry for you...liars are liars are liars...you know it, as does everyone else...

Now, I do believe that God does exist, that he began the whole thing, but I also believe that evolution may be His way...you may not agree, but so what?...

People want to cage God up into a little box, and decide that everything must go along with their own little personal interpretation of the Bible, and that God must conform to their particular beliefs...afraid to let God be God...

I dont have the answers to all of this, but then neither do you...you may look at the Bible one way, and I look at it in another way...I doubt that God is going to swoop down, and declare one side or the other to be the winner...He did give us brains to think with, and we all use our brains differently I suppose...

But to lie, even to deliberately perpetuate 'little' lies, is against what God has said...so again, if you are happy with little lies, so be it...


221 posted on 11/08/2005 3:00:57 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
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To: microgood
....the biggest example is when the IDers constantly state, as a fact, that evolution states that men descended from monkeys...in spite of the fact that they have been told time and time again, that evolution says no such thing and have been given numerous links to show them how wrong they are, they continue to spread the same lie over and over again...

I am not sure why you evos make such a big deal over this. Whether evolution states that we have a common ancestor with chimps or apes or whether we descended from them is a trivial difference to make such a big deal over.

It is quite obvious that you are using that trivial difference as part of your Clinton like scorched earth policy to discredit someone as a liar who is saying something not that different from what your are saying and focusing on a trivial difference rather than dealing with the common descent assumption directly.

I can't speak for other scientists, only myself.

In the science I do I have been trained to root out errors as well as I can. I hate mistakes, both in my work and in other's work; and have an even lower tolerance for deliberate falsehood. A scientist who engages in deliberate falsehood is finished.

That is why, to me at least, it makes a difference between monkeys and apes. I know when monkeys split off the line which eventually led to humans (in fact, New and Old World monkeys split off at different times).

When scientists approach a subject, it is natural that they try to correct any errors that others make as well. And when they are deliberate errors, perhaps done to denigrade evolution, it just makes it worse.

Hope this explanation helps.

222 posted on 11/08/2005 3:02:40 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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