TAX REFORM COMMISSION? YEAH ... RIGHT.

Neal's Nuze ^ | Oct. 12, 2005 | Neal Boortz

[SupplySider]

Kinda leaves me in a quandry over who to vote for in the next few election cycles.

The lessor of two evils, as usual...

I've never done it, but sometimes I'm almost tempted to vote for the more evil. After the Carter disaster we got Reagan, partly in reaction. When I voted for the lesser evil of Bush Sr., he legitimized tax increases and phony balanced budgets to the point that even Republicans still talk that way...

[JTHomes]

Thanks, I'm glad to see it.

[Your Nightmare]

Oh, but the FairTax IS a pure consumption tax as it is only taxable things purchased at retail that are taxed.

That's a retail sale, not consumption. For example, when you buy a house, do you consume the whole house? If the FairTax were a true consumption tax it wouldn't tax you on the sale price of the house, it would tax you on the imputed rental value of the house.

[Your Nightmare]

You can't seem to grasp that there is no FairTax country presently,

I believe I said NRST, not FairTax. Show us the 1 year window of any NRST country.

[pigdog]

LOL!! You don't even know what classifies as consumption under the FairTax I see.

Read the bill, Nightie - or better yet spend some time on the FairTax website. You certainly don't pay the imputed rental value when you buy the house, now do you? You pay the retail price if I recall (perhaps YOU don't, but most people do).

[pigdog]

Then I needn't answer you since I'm talking about the FairTax while you try to derail the thread by diverting any topic into something off the subject.

You've back to your old tricks I see, nebulous one. No sneaky tactic is too dishonest to be used, right?

[savedbygrace]

I accept your apology.

[hripka]

I said, "And how does the 'FairTax' change this??"

Your reply: Simple - there are no income tax (or other) forms relating to income that a taxpayer needs to fill out with the FaitrTax and there is only a single rate which affects everyone the same.

What I meant was, or perhaps you are misunderstood my point. I meant what would prevent a future Congress from mucking up the 'FairTax' just like the current system. Guaranteed: the 'FairTax' will get encrusted with exceptions, loopholes, provisions, etc. just like now.

[hripka]

I think you have this idea reversed.

These were transaction/turnover sales taxes that cascaded and for this reason were converted to a VAT to try to eliminate the effects of tax cascading and evasion therefrom.

I thought that the VAT is itself a 'cascading' tax?

So which is it: The VAT is a 'cascading' tax, or it replaces a 'cascading' tax?

[hripka]

The lead-in to the thread you gave is not particularly informative - or correct - and was refuted thoroughly by the 450 posts on the thread.

I take it then that you were opposed to the list of WINNERS that I foresee under the 'FairTax'? Which Winners did I have wrong?? There were quite a few comments which were un-answered by 'FairTax' proponents such as the Indian reservation issue, the casino issue, the Roth IRA issue, the government paying itself issue, the underground economy issue, the 16th Amendment problem, the investment real estate loophole under the 'FairTax', the employee benefit issue, keeping the 'FairTax' pure issue, the prebate as being equivalent to the despised Earned Income Tax Credit, among others. The smuggling problem was dismissed, though a 30% rate almost guarantees it.

Besides, there were no 450 refutations. There were 450 replies to that article. That is a BIG difference.

[hripka]

What part of my calculation in post 78 is wrong?

[hripka]

Congress will always meddle.

I want to see what the 'FairTax' will look like after it gets through the Ways and Means committee. Boortz and Linder might not even like their own baby.

[hripka]

That's less than the 36.9% marginal rate now, which the truely wealthy never pay anyway.

Where do the 'wealthy' not pay the top rate?

Why do 'FairTaxers' say there is great evasion under the current system, but can't believe anyone would even try to evade a 30% sales tax?

[hripka]

Am I going to go to some back ally to buy eggs and milk?

Yes.

You don't think that some buyers and sellers will split the differnce of a 30% sales tax? That means increased profit for the seller and reduced cost for the buyer!

[lewislynn]

Oh, but the FairTax IS a pure consumption tax as it is only taxable things purchased at retail that are taxed.

Earned or paid interest isn't retail,
"Any government" employee's wages salaries and benefits isn't retail,
Withholding of tax on nonresident aliens and foreign corporations isn't retail.

[hripka]

Flat taxes aren't even revenue neutral . . .

Yes they are.

. . . and don't make any significant change to the existing tax code.

Then the elimination of all deductions is, in your opinion, Nothing?

[hripka]

Be careful about what you wish for. A vote for Carter and a vote for Clinton would have been even worse.

[lewislynn]

With big retailers doing most of the business, collection of sales taxes from thousands will be easier than collecting income tax from millions.

Taking it from every worker's pay before it's ever seen is more difficult than returns from retail sales?

Relatively speaking, withholding from millions of paychecks is actually done by thousands....

[Hostage]

But the so-called "Fair Tax" eliminated any preferential treatment for home loan interest and medical insurance premiums altogether.

Sorry for sounding disrespectful but are you really that daft?

Did you ever think hat something else other than itemized deductibles would be eliminated?

I think you know what else will be eliminated that will offset the elimination of deductibles. I think you know that it is the income tax that will be eliminated.

I would wager your living is somehow tied to income tax and you are afraid that the Fair Tax reform would leave you dry.

But even if I am on the wrong side of that wager it doesn't hide the fact that you haven't thought about this in an intelligent way.

If you are really against the Fair Tax reform proposal, then you need to find a better argument. One argument has already been suggested in the Tax Reform hearings and that is that the level of a National Retail Sales Tax may have to be greater than 50 percent to fund government operations. You would get some debate for sure but at least you raise a debatable issue.

And if you are really fearful of a Fair Tax, then I suggest you need not worry. The USA is a Socialist Oligarchy masquerading as Democratic Republic. The present tax structure supports the aristocratic ruling class that oversees that oligarchy. To eliminate that tax support structure would take more than a fight, it would take a violent revolution. That ain't gonna happen as long as the citizens remain pacified using the old Roman technique of bread and circuses.

So sit back, relax and enjoy watching others here engage in a spirited debate. Although the Fair Taxers will win the debate it won't matter because they will lose the battle. That's because it takes guns to get the money out of the institutionalized government extortion and bribery rackets. And the gentle tax debaters are likely not to be gun toters. Even if they were they are likely to be law-abiding and they will never change the tax law to what they envision without a fight that goes outside current laws.

[phil_will1]

"Great Nightie. Which do you support (and please don't give us another one which is not yet before congress and can't be viewed) and how does it eliminate all present income tax laws?"

"I don't support any of them."

Interesting. The flat tax concept has been around for several decades now and not a single proposal has made it as far as having actual legislation in play that you would support. From my experience, that is pretty typical of flat taxers. Well, sort of. Many flat taxers don't even know what the various flat tax proposals are and have no idea what the differences between them are. They just like the concept of a postcard-like return.

That fact certainly shoots down the argument that the flat tax offers greater political viability as a major selling point. If the flat tax is so simple and sellable, why is it that no one has introduced language and design that most flat taxers can rally around?

Are they ALL waiting on the Nightmare tax to be finalized? How is that project coming BTW? Are we anywhere near seeing a website that will describe the Nightmare Tax and lay out its particulars?