Israeli-EU collaboration produces 'green' hydrogen fuel with solar energy

http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=457 ^ | 9/11/05 | David Brinn

[KJC1]

President Bush was the first U.S. president to approve funding for hydrogen cell vehicles and announced it during his 2003 State of the Union address.

Just wanted to mention that since libs always seem to "forget" that when they bash Bush about the environment.

[so_real]

"The Israelis may save the world if this technique for producing hydrogen pans out and proves practical,"

Worthy of repeating!

[Enchante]

"The Israelis may save the world if this technique for producing hydrogen pans out and proves practical," wrote Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan"

I sure hope this pans out, but be aware that "Professor Juan Cole" is a ludicrous source for this journalist to cite for affirmation. Not only is Cole not any kind of a scientist, he is a left-wing vicious moron whose support for anything should normally arouse only suspicion.

[so_real]

Thanks for the heads up !

[pillbox_girl]

Three things I see this article doesn't mention:

1. What is the energy in to usable fuel energy out ratio for this process? How does it compare plain old hydrogen from electrolysis?
2. What is the volumetric energy density of the hydrogen generating zinc + water fuel? How does it compare to plain old liquefied hydrogen?
3. What is the potential energy output of this process?

Granted, I could pull out my CRC and do the math to answer some of these questions, but I'm feeling lazy right now. However, the fact that these basic questions are not addressed in this article raises some warning flags.

[pillbox_girl]

And another thing. From the article, it says:

the team used sunlight to heat a metal ore, such as zinc oxide, to about 1,200° Celsius in the presence of charcoal.

What is the charcoal for? Is it a catalyst? Or is it broken down, thereby releasing carbon into the atmosphere?

If it is consumed to make the zinc, then that kind of defeats the main purpose of the clean carbon free "hydrogen economy".

[EGPWS]

"We still need to demonstrate the whole process on a larger scale before it could go to commercialization.

If it's a step forward for humanity and the USA would benefit from it the "greenies" with the help of the ACLU will use all resources available to stifle it's promotion.

[EGPWS]

Granted, I could pull out my CRC and do the math to answer some of these questions, but I'm feeling lazy right now.

Don't you have a tungsten cowhide turbo encabulator handy to do the work for you? ; )

[GSlob]

"Using Weizmann facilities, the team used sunlight to heat a metal ore, such as zinc oxide, to about 1,200° Celsius in the presence of charcoal. This split the ore, releasing oxygen and creating gaseous zinc, which was then condensed to a powder"

One small hole: the oxygen is released in form of...[drum roll, please] ... carbon monoxide [unpleasant poison, but could be used as a gas fuel or for synthesis] - their charcoal is going to end as carbon monoxide (which nobody is going to release on large scale) or dioxide, which is... [drum roll, please] ...a "greenhouse gas". The whole thing is an 120+ years old manufacturing process for zinc, but uses sunlight as a heat source instead of burning even more coal for the purpose.

Since zinc is [in theory] recyclable like a catalyst, they are virtually burning carbon (charcoal) in water vapor, generating hydrogen and CO or CO₂.

[Nathan Zachary]

I'm not sure which car maker in Europe, but I think it's Mercedes has a piston engine hydrogen car, and the refueling stations are driven by one wind turbine which produces the hydrogen on-site. It can also burn gas if hydrogen isn't available. Seemed simple enough.

[DB]

So how is the Zinc turned into hydrogen to be burnt in your car??? How much hydrogen to you get per pound of Zinc? What are the other byproducts?

It sounds like both charcoal and sunlight are consumed to produce the end product.

I'm not even slightly chemically literate... But it sure sounds like there's some major holes in this story...

[GSlob]

"So how is the Zinc turned into hydrogen to be burnt in your car??? How much hydrogen to you get per pound of Zinc? What are the other byproducts?"
1. ZnO + C = CO+ Zn [at high temperature - zinc manufacture]
2. CO+ 0.5 O₂ = CO₂ + more heat [optional - disposal of CO]
3. Zn + H₂O = ZnO + H₂ [release of hydrogen from water; 32g of zinc and 9 grams of water would be needed to make 1 (one) gram of hydrogen]
Total balance:
C + H₂O = CO + H₂.

[DB]

So the car has to carry the Zinc and the water and hold the byproduct to get 1/41th its weight in hydrogen leaving the rest as dead weight. That doesn't sound very efficient.

[pillbox_girl]

I've looke this up. Here's the basic process:

C = Carbon (from charcoal)
O = Oxygen (from the air)
Zn = Zinc
H = Hydrogen (from water)

The first reaction to produce metallic zinc:

2·ZnO + C + heat ==> 2·Zn + CO₂
The second reaction uses the zinc to release hydrogen from water:

Zn + H₂O ==> H₂ + ZnO
And finally, the hydrogen is burned to release energy and produce water:

2·H₂ + O₂ ==> 2·H₂O + energy

The promoters of the so called "hydrogen economy" spend all their time and energy concentrating on the third equation. "Look," they say, "there's no pollution, only water."

What they foolishly fail to notice, or dishonestly fail to mention, the that CO₂ lurking up there in the first equation. They never bother to look at their process in full, and combine all the equations for total inputs for total outputs. If we do that here, we get:

2·ZnO + C + heat + 2·Zn + 2·H₂O + 2·H₂ + O₂ ==> 2·Zn + CO₂ + 2·H₂ + 2·ZnO + 2·H₂O + energy
Now we need to remove the cancelled terms:

2·ZnO + C + heat + 2·Zn + 2·H₂O + 2·H₂ + O₂ ==> 2·Zn + CO₂ + 2·H₂ + 2·ZnO + 2·H₂O + energy
And this yields the resulting total equation:

C + O₂ + heat ==> CO₂ + energy
This, of course is the same chemical reaction as simply burning coal to get energy, except the people promoting this source for hydrogen to fuel the "hydrogen economy" have added in so many complications (not to mention inefficiencies) they no longer recognise it.

The promoters of the "hydrogen economy" are so intent on pushing hydrogen fueled cars that they fail to recognize or admit that some methods of generating hydrogen emit more greenhouse gasses per watt of energy than conventional fossil fuels. And this is one of those methods.

For an alternative fuel to be a true option for the future, it needs to meet two major requirements (and a bunch of minor ones I won't mention). It will need to allow us to be energy independent, and it needs to be carbon neutral. The inefficiencies of using hydrogen as a fuel make it very unlikely it will satisfy the first requirement any time soon. And using methods like the one proposed by this article are actually absolutely contrary to the second requirement.

[King Prout]

ping

[neverdem]

Thanks for the ping & bfl.

[PatrickHenry]

Thanks. This may fit antiguv's new ping list.

[.cnI redruM]

C + O2 + heat ==> CO2 + energy


That won't solve global warming. It will get rid of Tropospheric Ozone in large urban areas, however.

[AntiGuv]

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