Posted on 08/22/2005 6:53:28 PM PDT by RobFromGa
I suspect wages would have to drop 25% also for all the "changes" to occur. What about the min. wage? Who'll drop it?
Economies of Scale...Look it up.. Walmart buys in volume and cheap from China....
Net Flix deals in volume and everyone else is lowering their prices to compeat with the new niche video renters....There is your new competitor...Yahoo is not far behind..look for MS and Apple to do the same... (and no, I'm not a good speller)
Wal-mart is not lowering it's prices..it has always been cheap..
You say:
"So, he is in the same position as any other wage earner - he pays personal income taxes, but not any kind of business income tax. He fills out a 1040 for his personal income taxes, like anyone else. "
It doesn't matter what kind of taxes he pays now, he still pays them. He wouldn't under Fairtax.
Calling a tax a business tax, corporation tax or personal income tax doesn't change the fact that Bob is still paying taxes.
Yep, you're right, more FREE MONEY in this plan in case an increase of 25% in purchasing power isn't enough of a giveaway. There are so many problems with this pollyanna plan that I couldn't fit them all into one letter.
They probably won't respond but maybe one or both of them will think about what they are claiming and realize they need to tone back their promises.
Anyone who read the book, which I have done, knows what they claim. But that doesn't make it true.
The price of bread will be what the market can bear. If the baker can sell for $1.23, he will do it. OTOH, the competition factor will not be changed by the tax.
sorry I left you off the earlier ping. you might be interested in this.
I give up on you. If you really have read it, and studied it like you say then I believe you will never get it. What is even more perplexing is how you rather keep the current hideous 66,000 page income tax system vs. trying something different..
His employees get their whole paychecks including FICA and payroll, but the owner of the business doesn't get to keep his whole earnings and is expected to give up his income tax savings? This would not be fair and it would mean wage earners take-home income would rise significantly as related to the business owner. That doesn't sound "Fair".
Good, I'm tired of trying to explain myself to you. I take the time to lay out a fairly detailed example and all you have is exasperation and throwing "the book" at me.
What is even more perplexing is how you rather keep the current hideous 66,000 page income tax system vs. trying something different..
This is a ridiculous argument, the anything is better than what we have now argument. The present system with all of its flaws is one in which 300 million people are presently engaged in, and it has created the most prosperous and free nation in the history of the Earth. Could it be made better? of course. WOuld any possible change be better? of course not.
I hopefully won't hear from you again.
Of course that is true, but the economics for Bob's bakery and Jack's Bakery are the same, and if the price of bread with a 30% tax on it is higher than people are willing to pay, then one or both bakeries go out of business.
Is there currently a tax on services?Not where I live.
"Economies of Scale...Look it up."
Thank you. That is part of the problem here. Most Americans are illiterate when it comes to economics, even the basics.
This ignorance adds fuel to fire for politicians who want to blame Bob the Baker for making a living by taking advantage of George.
Only if people no longer need bread. They are going to have more money to spend.
If the FairTax is revenue neutral the same amount of money will flow into D.C. as before. I think it's safe to say prices will rise. OTOH, I think there will be more overall consumer spending power due to the efficieny in compliance.
Businessess pay no taxes under the FairtaxService businesses would...
Dear woodbeez,
No, either he is paying corporate income taxes, that is, a business tax, or he is paying personal income taxes.
Are you saying that Bob is paying no personal income taxes?
I own a Subchapter S corporation. I file a business tax return with the IRS. But I pay no taxes on my business. I file a 1040, and following the same rules as any W-2 employee, I pay personal income taxes on the earnings I derive from my business.
Do I pay corporate taxes and no personal income taxes? Or do I pay personal income taxes, and no corporate taxes? I'm only paying one. The government tells me it's personal income taxes. What do you say I'm paying?
Small businesses do not pay corporate income taxes. Period.
But you're right, Bob (or me) wouldn't pay any personal income taxes, either under the NSRT.
Just as his employee, Joe, wouldn't either. And what are you saying will happen to Joe's personal income taxes? Why, they'll be returned to Joe, right?
Because there will be an NSRT on what Joe spends his salary on. On his food, on part of the interest of his mortgage (that's right, part of the interest of your mortgage will be subject to a 30% sales tax), on his car insurance, his homeowner's insurance, and his health insurance. On his clothing, part of the interest of his car payment, on his gasoline (think! we'll all get to pay 30% more at the pump!).
So, it evens out. He gets to keep his personal income and payroll taxes, and with that, he pays the NSRT.
Okay, what about Bob? Bob makes $50K from his bakery, and pays $9K in personal income and payroll taxes. So, he takes home $41K. If he has to lower his prices by the amount of his taxes, he still takes home $41K.
But now, he doesn't have what Joe has - his personal income taxes. So, how does he pay the NSRT on his mortgage, his car payment, his food, his clothing, his car insurance, his life insurance, his homeowners insurance, his health insurance, his gasoline, etc.?
That's why it's called his PERSONAL income tax, and not a busines or a corporate income tax. For Bob not to lose out, he must be treated the way any wage earner is treated.
Otherwise, Bob will say, gee, I can't afford to both stay in business and pay this new NSRT. I had to cut my prices by the amount of my personal income taxes, so I'm screwed. Bob will say, I'll fire Joe. I'm a better baker than Joe, and we'll both apply at Really Big Baking company, and since I'm the better baker, and I have some business management experience, I'll get the job, and Joe won't.
Only, woodbeez, that won't happen. Because Bob's not going to lower his prices by the amount of his tax savings.
Here's why: His little bakery did $500,000 last year. He made $50,000, which is a pretty good profit on $500,000 in revenues. He paid $9,000 in taxes. That's 1.8% of his bakery's revenues. Less than 2%. If his bread, cookies and cakes are good, no one is going to bark at not seeing his $9.99 box of cookies decline 1.8% to $9.81.
No, he's going to keep the money, because he needs the whole $9,000 a whole lot more than any of his customers need 18 cents.
And thus, you're not going to squeeze the personal income taxes paid by business owners out of the value chain.
Now, go take a look at the taxes paid by big business. The IRS says that in 2003, they paid 1.3% of GDP in corporate income taxes. That means, the "embedded tax" in $1.00 of GDP is about a penny and half.
That will go away. We will see those costs go away, certainly. Whether they result in marginally lower prices, or whether large companies take this opportunity to expand their profit margins after decades of contraction, I don't know. But it's less than 2%.
If you want to see what corporations really make, and actually pay in income taxes, go look at their financial statements. Wal-Mart paid about 1.6% of its revenues in federal corporate income taxes last year. Sears paid less than 0.5% of its revenues in federal corporate income taxes last year. TechData, a leading distributor/wholesaler of electronics, paid about 0.1% of its $19 billion in revenues last year in federal corporate income taxes. Boeing, a massive manufacturer, with $52 billion in revenues, paid about $140 million in all corporate income taxes last year, both state and federal. That's less than 0.3% of revenues.
There isn't a lot of corporate income taxes to squeeze out of the value chain. There's a little, but it doesn't add up to much.
If you don't believe me, do the research yourself.
sitetest
Then explain Walmarts sucess and why video rental costs are about 25% of the price they were 5 years ago with less competitors.Where can you rent a video for $0.50?
Mark
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.