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The Real Story Behind Srebrenica
The Globe and Mail ^ | 14 July 2005 | Lewis MacKenzie

Posted on 07/15/2005 9:30:59 AM PDT by Doctor13

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To: zagor-te-nej

By the way, what's with the "conspiracy central" site?

Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job to?


41 posted on 07/18/2005 5:13:02 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: Joey Silvera

Are you refering to the brokered deal between Milo and Tudjman?


42 posted on 07/18/2005 7:42:26 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: johnnyBbad
>>>>>>Nice try. The war started in early April in the east when Arkan swept through the Drina Valley. Why do Serbs regularly screw around with the chronology to prove that Oric attacks in May 1992 and January 1993 somehow "started" a war in April 1992?<<<<<<

You claim that civil war started in early April 1992 and have confirmed this 2 times. Mark your words! I will.

In March 26, 1992, the Army of Republic of Croatia and Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries entered Bosnian Serb village of Sijekovac (Bosanski Brod municipality, Posavina region) and massacred tens of civilians.

At that time, Bosnia was not internationally recogized as a country and was part of Yugoslavia. It was an international agreesion.

Since you affirm that the civil war started in Early april, Sijekovac massacre shows who has kick started it.

Your hatred of Serbs is only matched by your disregard for facts.

I do not have to go even earlier and document the infiltration of Army of Republic of Croatia into Herzegovina in fall of 1991, Sijekovac, March 26 will do.

Chutzpah without the facts is a bluff.

Yours is exposed. Nice try pal :-)

43 posted on 07/18/2005 8:40:18 AM PDT by DTA
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To: DTA

The civil war in EASTERN Bosnia started with Arkan rolling into Bileljina, followed by Zvornik, Visegrad, Foca etc.

How that somehow "responds" to a battle in Northern Bosnia where a couple dozen Serbs died simply confirms what I've always believed: That the Serb tendency to lash out at her enemies with such disproportionate force was the best thing the Bosnians, Croats and Albanians had going for them!

It's truely sad how Serbs STILL don't understand how this made them look, instead calling everyone who questions their actions "Serb haters" or some such rubbish. Reminds me of how Arabs pull that "Islamophobia" crap whenever some one gets mad after a terror attack.


44 posted on 07/18/2005 9:44:55 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: DTA

by the way, DTA, if you're willing to say that I (some anonymous person on the net) have a "hatred for Serbs" just because I disagree with how Serbia conducted itself in the war, I can only imagine what you'd have been willing to do to some Muslim or Croat neighbour in Bosnia who didn't want to be with Slobo's Serbia anymore.

Again, very revealing as to the mindset that is all too common over there.


45 posted on 07/18/2005 9:53:36 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: johnnyBbad
Oh boy, you do have a nerve. First you falsify the facts and when caught red handed accuse me of "I can only imagine what you'd have been willing to do to some Muslim or Croat neighbour in Bosnia who didn't want to be with Slobo's Serbia anymore."

Your accusation assumes that I lived in Bosnia. I did not. Nor I set foot there during the war.

Why stop with this accusation, better accuse me of commiting war crimes because I deflated your ego.

I do not have to imagine what you are willing to do. Your butchering of facts is enough. Very revealing as to the mindset that is all too common among Liberals.

46 posted on 07/18/2005 12:58:37 PM PDT by DTA
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To: DTA

I never accused you of commiting war crimes. I said that given you attitude towards me, I can only imagine what you would do to a Bosnian Muslim.

as for when the war started, are you willing to state that Serbia's attack on the Drina Valley was a justified response to some gunbattle with Croats in northern Bosnia? That does seem to be the implication of you pointing out that March 92 incident. Again, you only proved my point on what lost the war for Serbia.

Me a "Liberal?" Well at least you didn't call me a jihadust or something. Isn't that the usual serb insult for those who object to their war tactics?


47 posted on 07/18/2005 1:24:53 PM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: johnnyBbad
You say " I never accused you of commiting war crimes". This is completely uneccessary, because I have never said that you did.

Please go back and read what I wrote. That was sarcasm (I wrote that if you groundlessly accuse me of what I could do toward my alleged neighbors you may accuse me of commiting of war crimes as well since I never lived in Bosnia nor set a foot there during the war.)

it seems that you have pre-conceived picture of events in the Balkans and get angry when facts differ from your preconceptions.

According to your template, the massacre of Serb civilians in Sejekovac is a battle although perps were armed and the victims were not, Serbia attacked Bosnia in Drina valley in april 1992 and Serbia waged war in Bosnia and lost.

On my attempt to explain the facts, you respond with another groundless accusation in an attempt to kick the ball out of the field.

We know that liberal's reasoning is immune to facts and logic.

I apologize if you are not a liberal. But you do sound as one.

48 posted on 07/18/2005 1:51:47 PM PDT by DTA
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To: johnnyBbad
You say " I never accused you of commiting war crimes". This is completely uneccessary, because I have never said that you did.

Please go back and read what I wrote. That was sarcasm (I wrote that if you groundlessly accuse me of what I could do toward my alleged neighbors you may accuse me of commiting of war crimes as well since I never lived in Bosnia nor set a foot there during the war.)

it seems that you have pre-conceived picture of events in the Balkans and get angry when facts differ from your preconceptions.

According to your template, the massacre of Serb civilians in Sejekovac is a battle although perps were armed and the victims were not, Serbia attacked Bosnia in Drina valley in april 1992 and Serbia waged war in Bosnia and lost.

On my attempt to explain the facts, you respond with another groundless accusation in an attempt to kick the ball out of the field.

We know that liberal's reasoning is immune to facts and logic.

I apologize if you are not a liberal. But you do sound as one.

49 posted on 07/18/2005 1:51:48 PM PDT by DTA
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To: johnnyBbad
The first shot of the war was the shooting death of Serb civilian Nikola Gardovic on March 1, 1992 in the old town section of Sarajevo during a wedding procession where he was carrying the Yugoslav flag (he was the father of the groom). He was shot by Ramiz Delalic "Celo", deputy commander of the 9th Brigade in the Muslim controlled army.

Had you ever heard of "Celo" before?

What about Musan Topalovic "Caco", who was commander of the Tenth Mountain Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovia?

Are you familiar with the name Jusuf Prazina?

All these men are accused for atocities against Serb civilians in Sarajevo - and elsewhere - including running torture/death camps throughout Sarajevo, beheading and throwing the bodies in a gorge called Kazani, and more.

These men were praised by Izetbegovic, including on TV. They were hardened criminals and ex-cons in the years before the war and Izetbegovic put them in charge.

After they had done their dirty work in the areas of Sarajevo and elsewhere which Muslims controlled, Izetbegovic sought to distance himself and make the army more professional - so he fought them and/or had them arrested, killed and/or demoted. There were internal fights among the Muslims in the arrests.

This how witness Lieutenant-Colonel Christian Bergeron of the Canadian Armed Forces testified at the Hague about the arrests of Celo and Caco in 1993:

JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. Just a slight clarification, please. This is in relation to what you said. During the effort of the army, or rather the command of the army, of the Presidency army, to have an effective command and control on some of their factions inside their troops, you spoke of some exchange of fire which took place between units of the army of the Presidency and some groups, and that this had caused some civilian victims. How long did it last, this operation? Was this a one-day or two-day operation or did this go on for months?

A. Well, from what we knew about it or, rather, the most important, the most famous that we could see the effects on the ground itself, this operation must have lasted about 48, 72 hours. This operation took away Celo and Caco. As far as I remember, this was an operation, 72 hours.

JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] However, this operation did cause some civilian deaths?

A. There were losses, I know, but I don't know how many. I don't know the details.


50 posted on 07/18/2005 1:57:52 PM PDT by joan
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To: DTA

My bad on the war crimes accusation. I did read it wrong.

From what I have heard, the incident at Sejekovac was a gun battle that left between 24-27 Serbs dead. If it was a massacre of civilians then I can only hope the perps were brought to justice and I will not make any excuses for the conduct of the HV units involved.

What I don't understand is how this somehow justifies or explains why the Serbs would then sweep through the Eastern regions and surround Sarajevo. How is attacking Musilms a response to a Croat attack? Again, it was this kind of "response" to enemy attacks that cost the Serbs the PR war (I wouldn't say the Serbs lost the whole war - they lost Krajina and Western Bosnia and ended up winning in the north and east, minus Gorazde).


51 posted on 07/18/2005 2:05:46 PM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: joan

Ah yes I've heard that story as well.

Apparently a shooting at a Sarajevo wedding party is grounds for surrounding and shelling the city for four years.

It bears repeating: the Serb tendency to lash out was the best weapon her enemies had.


52 posted on 07/18/2005 2:08:19 PM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: johnnyBbad
Sarajevo was divided into Serb sections and Muslims sections. Serbs lived in parts of Sarajevo such as Grabovica and Ilidza. The line of confrontation ran through the middle of the city practically - not far from the Holiday Inn.

The Muslims were launching attacks on the Serb parts - including shelling Ilidza from Mount Igman:

http://157.150.195.28/icty/transe29/020704IT.htm

Testimony from WITNESS: RICHARD MOLE [Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Mole]

Q. Thank you. Are you aware of an attack which took place -- are you aware of the attacks coming from Mount Igman on the 4th and 8th of December, 1992?

A. I would not be specific about the 4th and 8th of December, 1992, because it was a frequent occurrence that the weapons on Mount Igman were used in the conflict, and I recall specifically that they were used and fired upon the area of Ilidza.

Q. Thank you for your answer, Witness.

When you say, "Ilidza," are you referring to a civilian area?

A. Of course. The whole battle area was occupied by civilians, hence, it is a city called Sarajevo.

Q. Thank you very much. So are you telling us that Muslim forces had opened fire on an area in Sarajevo?

A. On Ilidza, yes.

Q. That is a part of Sarajevo, on an area in Sarajevo?

A. It is a suburb of Sarajevo.

53 posted on 07/18/2005 2:15:13 PM PDT by joan
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To: johnnyBbad
Extracts from the testimony of James Philipe Cutler. The Bosnian side would often be the first to start launching attacks of the day:

http://www.un.org/icty/transe29/020524ED.htm

WITNESS: JAMES PHILIPE CUTLER

“Yes. I am Mr. but ex -- retired Lieutenant-Colonel James Philipe Cutler…Yes, I am retired from the New Zealand Army and I was an officer in the Royal New Zealand Regiment for 32 years…Yes, I arrived from New Zealand on the 29th of November and was posted -- I flew into Sarajevo as a senior military observer on the 21st of December, 1992, and officially took over from Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Mole on the day after Christmas, [Realtime transcript read in error " "] the 26th of December, 1992.

Q. Colonel Cutler, during the course of your tenure in Sarajevo, do you -- or did you receive any information that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was using the hospital grounds to launch mortars?

A. Yes, there had been a lot of rumours floating around that, in fact, mortars were being used or various United Nations installations, the locations of the Egyptian and Ukrainian battalion, and in particular, the Kosevo hospital had been used to screen firing of mortars by the Presidency forces.

On the -- I was obviously delighted that on the second week in January, I think it was on the 12th of January, a colonel sergeant from the British Cheshire regiment, who had been in charge of mortars, asked to see me. He had been asking who he could give a statement to. I welcomed him into my office and I took a statement from him that involved him witnessing the fire of a mortar, an 82-millimetre mortar, from adjacent to the Kosevo hospital. I think it was early afternoon. The Colonel sergeant had been escorting a convoy of fuel to that hospital. He and his crew observed this mortar firing five rounds from the hospital, adjacent to the hospital grounds, as part of the hospital grounds.… On leaving the hospital grounds, which would have been in the order of 30 minutes later, the hospital came under mortar, artillery, and anti-aircraft fire…

In the February-March period, that was – seemed to be particularly evident to the stage where we would get up in the morning, 6.00, no activity whatsoever and then we would hear a couple of "pop pops" which were obviously outgoing mortar fire from the Bosnian, and within a short few minutes later, there would be incoming fire, and normally the incoming fire would be more than two rounds. If two rounds were fired out, it would be something in the order of 10 to 15 rounds would be incoming…

So you would hear outgoing fire from the Presidency side, the Bosnian side, followed by incoming?

A. Correct.


54 posted on 07/18/2005 2:31:49 PM PDT by joan
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To: johnnyBbad
>>>>Apparently a shooting at a Sarajevo wedding party is grounds for surrounding and shelling the city for four years.<<<

Your cynicism aside, you forgot the following:

1. In 1991 Bosnian Muslims have organised clandestine Patriotic League of over 70,000 armed fighters. The aim was to repeat script from Croatia - kill and intimidate JNA officers and rectuits. JNA officer, Bosnian Muslim Sefer Halilovic was the brain behind this and he spoke openly what Muslims planned and what they did. JNA trusted him with command. He was a traitor.

2. March murder of a Serb father in a wedding procession was calculated provocation. There is enough evidence from Muslim sources. The perp although known was never punished.

3. Prior to Bosnia gaining independence April 6, JNA was legitimate armed force in Bosnia Herzegovina, not an invader as claimed by the Muslims. National Guard is not an invader in Georgia or Tennessee. JNA retreated when it was decided on political level, after Bosnia gained independence. When JNA retreated from Sarajevo garrison, the column was ambushed from front and back and many recruits and officers were murdered. JNA had had capability to lever Sarajevo but no such action took place. The response was a encircling of the city.

In any conflict, unilateral use of force makes truce null and void. Muslims have attacked retreating JNA not once, but two times (Sarajevo, Tuzla).

4. During four years of conflict, Sarajevo was Bosnian Muslim garrison. Muslim government took all citizens of Sarajevo hostage because they were not allowed to leave. Taking hostages is a war crime per Geneva Convention.

Methinks you know all of this too well.

55 posted on 07/18/2005 4:52:08 PM PDT by DTA
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To: DTA

Completely agree when it comes to Muslim intimidation of the JNA.

However I'm also aware of how the JNA functioned in both Croatia and Bosnia. Serb paramilitaries would take a town and the JNA would arrive to secure their holdings. This was repeated throughout eastern Bosnia until the JNA left in May/June 92, but not before turning over most of its heavy guns to the Serbs.


56 posted on 07/19/2005 5:10:03 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: Honorary Serb; johnnyBbad; FormerLib; ma bell; Destro; DTA; dj_animal_2000; joan

http://conspiracycentral.net:6969/ is site where you can download documentary:
“Yugoslavia - The avoidable war”, which will help you (maybe) to understand that Racak (like Markale, Vase Miskina Street…) were crimes committed by Muslim forces.

This way you do not have to go to Sarajevo to bay video cassettes glorifying jihad. You can download that material for free.
http://www.srpskinacionalisti.com/media/video/istina.ram

“They all seem very secular folk, more likely to drink themselves silly than pray in a mosque.”

Good description of 9/11 terrorist - bar-going, secular-looking Muslim like Atta.
Western quest for liberal, free, democratic, western-leaning Muslim is futile. When occupying forces order Serb officials to keep quiet of 35 kg of explosive found in Srebrenica you encourage Muslim.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1437296/posts?page=1

Your understanding for Muslim and prosecution of Serbs will result in more London, Madrid, Beslan and New York bombings.

And I absolutely like this part - “when Arkan swept through the Drina Valley”. Where you keep digging those fantasies?


57 posted on 07/19/2005 7:05:21 PM PDT by zagor-te-nej (http://emperors-clothes.com/sreb/mem.htm)
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To: johnnyBbad
It bears repeating: the Serb tendency to lash out was the best weapon her enemies had.

Then you stick your head in the sand and your *** in the air and see how the Muhammedans treat you. Oh, they'll probably film it so make sure you show your good side, ok?

58 posted on 07/19/2005 7:59:56 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib
Then you stick your head in the sand and your *** in the air and see how the Muhammedans treat you. Oh, they'll probably film it so make sure you show your good side, ok?

Lamest reponse ever.

59 posted on 07/20/2005 5:20:48 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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To: zagor-te-nej
Sorry man, but when you surround a town for three years and shell the place with thousands of rounds it's not exactly unrealistic for the world to assume that you fired certain shots that blew apart 37, 68 and 45 people.

I really don't care if you fail to understand why Serbia was seen so badly during the war. It's not my country that will be an outcast because of it.

And I absolutely like this part - “when Arkan swept through the Drina Valley”. Where you keep digging those fantasies?

Oh that's right - it was a Muslim dressed up as Arkan! Silly me.

I'd laugh but I actually feel sorry for you.

60 posted on 07/20/2005 5:26:21 AM PDT by johnnyBbad
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