Posted on 07/01/2005 3:09:54 PM PDT by SandRat
I just saw your post #35. You told it like it was, and good for you! You might be interested in my post #39.
This old cav trooper sends his condolences for your loss.
Sure it was us awarding the Army General. But how comes that you think we did that just to stop the troops pullout? Are you all on this thread so - let me call it like it is - narrow-minded that you really believe we were doing this to get something back? Heck, an award is something you get for already having achieved something. We THANK him with that, and don´t EXPECT anything.
Yeah, the personal relations are really boosting our ties.
I'm glad to see someone still has pride in the "old country"
Thank you. Already lots of commercial/industrial areas are around German and US bases; the importance of your presence is economically low, politically it´s quite significant.
Tell the family of your nephew my condolences, it´s terribly sad to read that!
"...Tell the family of your nephew my condolences, it´s terribly sad to read that!..."
I also want to transmit my respect and condolences. The best ones always have to pay the worst price.
Best Regards,
Andreas
[will try to out bid each other with anti-American campaigns]
Actually, no, unless Bush spends 6 months telegraphing an Iran attack instead of the news suddenly announcing an Iranian revolution already in an advanced stage. I live in Germany. The mood is extremely pro-American (for instance as measured in beautiful young women who want to marry American men). Everyone with a brain remembers that Schroeder took unfair advantage of their skittishness that Saddam might nuke Munich if the Germans participated in an Irak-Angriff. They were definitely not against the overthrow by force of Saddam. They were just chicken littles about his "immense power." Ditto for Iran...the average German, like the average American, thinks that Iran is all powerful and cannot be defeated.
I should repeat what the typical "anti-American" attitude was in Europe over the last 2 years that the press never clarified for you...Me: "So did you think the liberation of Iraq was good?"...German: "Actually, I don't believe the Arabs are ready for democracy, so I think it was a mistake."...Me: "American conservatives said in the 30s and 40s that the Germans were not ready for democracy either; but may I ask you: what do you think of American soldiers and Marines, do you think they are brave and honorable?"...German: "Yes! I am surprised at how most of them are incredibly brave. I wouldn't want to ever fight them. Every country's soldiers should be like that. Probably not all the bad ones are caught but they know they are being watched. That helps keep them honest."
About closing German bases...NO!...I think it is extremely important that we "occupy" Germany for 100 years. We are in a unique situation where the majority Conservatives of a country actually want us to occupy them as friends for generation after generation. We don't want Germany to ever be a rival again like Russia and China now are. This "Transatlantic Relationship" means a lot more than just an alliance. It means that the conservatives of a country never want to be rivals again. It means "Please have a huge air-base at Frankfurt". Also...by continuing the "occupation of Germany" another 60 years...it takes Germans off the hook for "allowing" Americans to use Frankfurt as an air and supply base for operations elsewhere. Terrorists cannot say to Germany: "We will attack your cities because you work with the Americans." Germans can answer back "Sorry, but the Americans are occupying us and can use those bases whenever they like in emergencies and we cannot stop them." It is more complicated than the above but, essentially, with the battle in Iraq...the German elections were NOT about whether Germany would allow the logistical side of the war to happen largely from Frankfurt...it was about whether Germany would send troops to Iraq in the initial invasion. Both sides in the election said they wouldn't do that, but Schroeder was believed more and won by less than 1% of the vote.
There are a lot of things in this war that seem "anti-American" but are really working in our favor when one considers what is NOT being said. For instance, the Left keeps arguing about Bush making the wrong "decision". The Right says Bush made the right "decision". The terrorists then get the message that Bush will be making the "decisions" in this war and they will have to react but not ever try to proact. Bush made the "decision" that Al Qaeda will only fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. The terrorists are forced to obey because the Left has boxed them into that paradigm only.
In Europe, the terrorists are forced not to commit any attacks on anyone because Europe is their "ally." But the European police are allowed to arrest 1000 of them per year. Anti-Americanism can be a great smoke-screen for paralyzing terrorists while Europeans hopefully neutralize them. Caveat: This is not to say that I actually trust leftists in Europe or anywhere else.
"...It is germane to the US however, if Europe sells advanced technology and arms to our potential enemies..."
This will not happen due to the change in gouvernments in Germany and France.
"...I hope the probable upcoming defeat of the SPD can change the tenor of our current relationship with Germany. The French are hopeless..."
The relationship between the US and Germany will soon get better. I am convinced of that, although something very fundamental has changed because of Schoeders amok run: Germany is not being occupied by the US anymore and your politicians realized it finally. If they want the support of Germany, they will have to ask first. We all know, that this was not the case until the animosities around the Iraq war. I hope you understand, that I appreciate this development as a German patriot, although I absolutely do not like Schroeder and his buddies at all. This emancipation of the "lex americana" was overdue since a long time. That it happend in this unpleasant form, is the guilt of Schroeder and his morons.
Since there will be a change in France from Chiraq to Sarkozy, I am sure that the relations between France and America will also develop to a good base again. France of course will always be "la grande nation", but they can be good buddies if you respect their crankiness. Everything will be easier, if each side is not to bullheaded and stops acting like a petulant child.
BTW - I am doing business in Köln and will visit the town next week. You see, the world is a small place!
They are right Michael.
The pull-out of US troops, or better said how fast and to what extent was largely driven by what happened in 2002/2003.
The DoD is like any other Corporation. In fact, it has a budget and even a service it delivers. Germany as “Standort” for our operations was jeopardized with the rhetoric of no over flight rights, Schroeder’s plays against the US, Belgium not allowing any trains to go through the boarder until after the elections, Austria not granting over flight rights nor even allowing rail use…………….
Why stay? If you’re in genetic engineering, zinc works or nuclear industry you also will have closed your doors by now. Why? The German government all but bureaucratically sabotaged it’s own nuclear industry in which it was the “worlds leader” in commercial use. The DoD looks at risk, costs, and many other variables. Iraq 2003 had a huge impact on how the US DoD, Government in general looks at Germany. Just like a private firm, the DoD drew consequences from the decisions made. This while downplayed and overlooked will have some impact, especially localized in the German economy. Places like Friedberg, Hanau…..will feel it for sure. Nationally the US pumps nearly 10 Billion (with a “B”) into the German economy.
How do you think we get our tanks to Graf, Hohenfels? What fuel are we using and whom do we buy it from? Even major repairs on tanks, the cost of infrastructure etc are major sums of money we are talking about. The DoD ALONE employs around 12,500 Germans (on US payroll). It will have sum impact, although not major at the national level. Do not look at this as a “knife cut”, as “payback”, rather look at it as an empirical business decision. What would you do if you were in the US’s shoes? Remember, Even many German firms are leaving and relocating to Poland, Check Republic etc.
Unfortunately the damage has been “institutionalized”. Examples?
Look at the USAEUR land war expo in 2004. Did they muzzle the anti-German speaker who caused the withdraw of German displays and participation there? No
What about the Army at the Hessentage? Hessen is CDU and ruled by a very good governor who can even be listed as a friend, Koch. Why was no Army there? They used to play along. Because the “Decision makers” don’t care. That’s not a priority to them anymore.
What more examples? Fact is, the damage has been institutionalized at this point. The knife cutting and political jabs have stopped, but the bad after taste remains. It will take a conscious effort from the “top down” to make a difference.
You better believe that 2002/03 made a difference in when and how much stays in Germany.
However, with Merkel things will get better. Yet the decisions made then will still be executed even under her. Trust was violated and Germany was nearly the exclusive base of operation for all our governmental operations in Africa, the Middle East or Europe. 2003 proved that we must balance the risk and spread out. Germany can not be our “only child” on which we place all our hopes. By balancing Germany with Romania, Bulgaria in the equation we are less “dependent” on the political whims of some politician who might have large aspirations. Spread the risk. In the long run it’s also a more cost beneficial way to operate in that Germany is extremely expensive. Power, rail, fuel, labor, construction, COLA for soldiers, water, some lands are rented, all make the costs of operating there very high. Romania and Bulgaria will be more cost effective (In the long run). In the short term it costs a lot to build the infrastructure but over a long time period we will save this way. Through in other variables in Germany like training area usage (Keine Tieflieger-Nacht laerm-Sontags Ruhe….. Oeko this and that) and Romania gets really really attractive to our military. If you run over a tree in Germany on a training area, it’s a major problem!
(My humble opinion)
Will the US military downsizing in Germany be a major impact to the national economy there? No. Will it have some? Yes. $10 Billion dollars a year paid for by an outside tax source in the US and flowing more or less at no cost into Germany will be felt, but Germany is a several trillion dollar economy and will easily absorb this. Will it have some severe localized impacts? Yes. Some small towns around US installations will feel it very hard in furniture, car, food, rent etc. Is this now payback for Iraq? No. No more than any other firm leaving Germany. However, was it caused by the political maneuvering of Schroeder in 2002/03? Yes. Does Schroeder care? No. Do the Germans care? No. Do most Americans care? No. Will it affect the US’s commitment to NATO? No. Will it affect the US/German relations? No. The damage was already done in 2002/03; you’re just now feeling and seeing the impact, just like with Siemens when they shut down plants some time after Germany’s decision to kill its own nuclear industry. Some damage is institutionalized but the withdraw of our troops will not burn any more bridges than are already burnt. Will things get better again? Depends! If Schroeder gets reelected things will get worse! I believe the US is weathering it out. I think the US has hopes that Merkel wins and if she does not, I think the rounds of draw downs coming in 2007 will not be the last. I believe then the US will draw down to nearly nothing eventually. Will the US ever admit that our withdraw and Iraq are related? No. Who is most impacted by all this? Germany. Do the Germans see this? No. In fact many Germans saw “Der Deutsche Weg” of Schroeder as a statement that they are someone again. Strength through opposition is a reality. Will the DoD loose in this matter? No. Only in the short term are we under addition stress because we need to build several bases in Romania and Bulgaria. Long term these bases are even closer to what we now define as our national center of gravity-
Look at our Advanced Combat Uniform!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm
It’s not designed for Germany (The basic colors don’t even match up); rather the Middle East, North Africa and the Caucasus. We today are in Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Sudan, Niger, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Sinai, UAE, Republic of Georgia, and other places (Ghetto translation- We are all over that bitch). We see Iran as a major threat as well as Syria. Fact is, Romania and Bulgaria are closer to the center of gravity. Even places like Chechnya and other unstable areas are near by. Even the Balkan contingent can be supported easier from there if the need should arise. Romania and Bulgaria are connected to the Black Sea, a major plus in our future and current operations. The Cold War is over and the Warsaw pact is gone. Our new Cold War is the GWOT and will be fought in the Middle East, Caucasus and North Africa. We will be playing in this area of the world for a long long time! We know this.
Again, look at the DoD as a corporation. It’s not a personal or emotional decision. There are may reasons why the US is leaving Germany. However, Germany did for sure influence the decision making process with the rhetoric and political plays of 2002/03. "Trust" is a major factor. Ask Russia and their lack of investments if "trust" matters. The US simply does not see Germany as fully trust worthy anymore, and that's not meant as a hidden insult.
Red6
"The relationship between the US and Germany will soon get better. I am convinced of that, although something very fundamental has changed because of Schoeders amok run: Germany is not being occupied by the US anymore and your politicians realized it finally. If they want the support of Germany, they will have to ask first. We all know, that this was not the case until the animosities around the Iraq war. I hope you understand, that I appreciate this development as a German patriot, although I absolutely do not like Schroeder and his buddies at all. This emancipation of the "lex americana" was overdue since a long time. That it happend in this unpleasant form, is the guilt of Schroeder and his morons.
Since there will be a change in France from Chiraq to Sarkozy, I am sure that the relations between France and America will also develop to a good base again. France of course will always be "la grande nation", but they can be good buddies if you respect their crankiness. Everything will be easier, if each side is not to bullheaded and stops acting like a petulant child. " You said
You're a space cadet.
Red6
On the other hand, in his defense- Even in the US we have our share of Michael Moore's, Jane Fonda's and other sub-humans. Even we have the NYT’s, LA Times and other politically left oriented media that stir up the masses. Even we have politicians like Schroeder who will knowingly do things that can be harmful to our soldiers just because it’s politically advantageous to them (Kerry and his testimony-votes against funding the DoD in war, Boxer, Feinstein, etc). There are “weasels” on both sides of the pond. It was Americans who “spat” on some of our service members returning from Vietnam. It’s American liberal college professors today that deny this happened!
Germany at that time was also getting bombarded with Communist propaganda via the Communist Revolutionary Front, Radio Moscow etc. They even had people who were known antagonists that the DDR let travel back and fourth. The wall was not air tight if you were a communist willing to sell the party line in the FRG. People lived in the "real" fear of war and many were not to keen on that thought. Since you were stationed there you will remember REFORGER and the massive build up of forces there. We had 300,000 troops there. Canada, France, Netherlands, Great Britain had people there as well. Point is? Even though we didn’t really act like occupiers and were no bad guys, Germany was flooded with military forces, exercises were highly intrusive and the fear of war was a real fear for those living in the areas you were at. There was even competition for resources. There was a lack of places to live etc. Even in the US we had our anti-nuke, anti-Nicaragua, anti-Panama, anti-Vietnam war protests. All things considered, it wasn’t so bad in Germany then. If we had a dozen little posts through most of our towns and clogged up roads, inflated rental costs of homes etc. many people would also be annoyed in an average US town. Of course we brought them money, but people never see the good things. They always focus on the negative aspects.
Also remember that the loudest screaming whacko’s always get the most attention. The majority of Germans stayed at home, lived their lives and what you saw were the screaming idiots that today pierce their face and go to some alternative lifestyle parade.
The key difference between 1985 and 2003 is that the German government worked against the US in 2003. All awhile there were protests, whistles, water throwers, the government of Germany stood behind the US and we always knew it in 1985. In 2002 Schroeder went whacko on us. No prior coordination with the US, NATO or even within the EU, Schroerder out of pure political “Kalkuehl” (Calculation) went against the US and the rest of the institutions followed. His own cabinet hadn’t been informed! Germany fell into our back in 2002 and that is a break from the past. When they disagreed they used to be mute, abstain from voting and stay out of the issue. In 2003 they sabotaged us. This is a break from the “Realpolitik” of the past.
Red6
bump
Thats a lot better than FDR ever had. ;~))
Good point! That puts everything into proper perspective. ;-)
You are right on what you said. Still, you didn´t read my post to you, even though it was very short. I didn´t criticize the pullout, I didn´t blame the DoD, and I´m fully aware of all the true things you said. I criticized the naive and self-impressed FReepers who believe we were presenting a high medal to one of your Army Generals to stop or slow down the withdrawal from Germany. THIS is idiocy at best. I actually wanted you to smile about the comments, since we talked about those "unbelievable" thoughts.
"...You're a space cadet..."
And you are a "Meister der besonderen Art"!.
Atlantic Bridge
P.S. We shouldn't waste our time in senseless discussions.
My condolences for your nephew.
Yes, you can read to much into events.
Have you been in a DC3/6 before? We can go crawl through them if you want.
Red6
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