Misquoting Our Founding Fathers

Catholic Educator's Newsletter ^ | June 2005

[muir_redwoods]

But for those of us who do and don't rely on religion it works just fine.

[Archon of the East]

A Christian. or any other, America would send us back into the dark ages of religious persecution.

It seems to me that that the Marxist liberty=license crowd is using the deist argument to attemt to eliminate religion and not promote freedom of it. I believe they are specifically attacking Christianity because regardless of the past tryanny Christian churches laid foundation to our western culture and IMO that is exactly what they are trying destroy. Thus I believe the fight for Christianity is not so much a fight for Theocracy but a fight for our western culture. I mean honestly, who is trying to esatblish a theocracy? Certainly one can not equate the simple mention of God with the esablishment of a federal church?

No church has ever given freedom, yet many churches have enjoyed the freedom of religion made possible by our secularist founders.

Neither has any Government. In reality all Government's take away freedoms, our founder's understood that. I guess it might just boil down to whose law do wish to live by? Reason has given this country greatness, revelation has provided the glue that had kept us together. Do you really like what you see when you look forward into a post modern world?

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

Great thread. Saving some of this.

[Red Sea Swimmer]

Most of the Founding Fathers of America were great men. Defaming the dead, especially the righteous dead stirs up divine anger. People who defame the righteous people of the past are cowards of the lowest order.

The dead keep track of the livings actions. Cynics should ask themselves what sort of dreams and hopes the dead may have had for the future of humankind during their lifetimes. At some point in most people's lives a person experiences a feeling of unbridled optimism and truly believes in a world of eventual peace and harmony.

Respect for the dead is a very important thing. Can and will people of today respect the wishes of those that have come before us ?

[jla]

Or an American hero and the most compelling proponent for the cause of freedom in the colonies.

Besides writing Common Sense what deeds would merit Paine the accolade of "American hero"?
He certainly was no hero to George Washington.

[mugs99]

the fight for Christianity

ROFL!
That line speaks volumes...You speak of the "Marxist liberty=license crowd", the fight for "western culture".
There is no fight. Never has been. Christianity under attack in America is BS. The handful of anti Christian kooks were ignored by mainstream America until Christian crusaders gave them attention.

You speak of "Marxist", but you obviously haven't read Marx. He was the original crusader against the "liberty=license crowd". Like Marx, religious fanatics use catchy slogans to spread fear and hate. This is not about the "simple mention of God". This is about the Christian hijack of God. God=Christian.

"America is a Christian nation" turns everyone who is not Christian into second class citizens. It is un-American and a danger to our Republic!
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[Archon of the East]

OK mugs, thanks for the condescending ROFL! comment, thats OK I understand. Would the term Soros progressive socialist be more fitting than Marxist? If you don't think that Christianity has been the dominant religion in America since its inception and that it currently being attacked like NEVER BEFORE than you need to pay attention. Originally states often not only tolerated school prayer but encouraged it, but why not today? Why can't a memorial of a cross be present on public land, no Constitutional ground for removing it. The ACLU was in fact founded by communists (and please spare me the definition of the term that has morphed at every defeat). Aren't our laws essentially based on the Magna Carta, a document heavily influenced by God and Christianity? No Mugs we are talking about the mere mentioning of God in Public because that no longer seems tolerated, at least not by a Christian. And why, because Christians believe abortion is wrong, how could they be so intolerant. My whole prior point was that no matter how you slice it Western culture and the American founding was a product of heavy Christian influence, never did I say that anyone should be a second class citizen for their religious beliefs or lack of. Never!

[mugs99]

Would the term Soros progressive socialist be more fitting than Marxist?

No. You are attempting to label others who don't share your dogma as enemies of the Christian state. Many socialists are Christian and so are many Democrats and Libertarians. The Republican Party does not own Christianity and Christianity does not own America.

You dodge the issue by injecting Soros, ACLU et all into the debate. That is exactly the reason why so many are speaking out against Christian zealotry. There was no problem until televangelists stirred up the gullible with their claims of "persecution".
That empowerd the ACLU and others to recruit the gullible on the other side who fear a return of Christian intolerance. Many are old enough to remember what happened when gullible Germans were shouting "Germany is a Christian nation".

American founding was a product of heavy Christian influence,

We all agree on that. Deists are not anti-Christian. Why are Christians anti-Deist?

never did I say that anyone should be a second class citizen for their religious beliefs or lack of. Never!

"America is a Christian nation" is saying exactly that.
Non Christians see that as a threat, and see attempts by Christians to rewrite history as sinister.

Aren't our laws essentially based on the Magna Carta

No, they are not. The Magna Carta did not separate church and state and did not grant self determination to the people. The Constitution does.

OK mugs, thanks for the condescending ROFL!

That wasn't condescending, it was genuine...Sorry you took it that way.
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[Natchez Hawk]

I certainly understand he was not a politican or a founding father in the terms of government service. I meant founding father in a more symbolic, less statist way

[Archon of the East]

No I am not attempting to label anyone. If you read my initial "Marxist" statement I was merely saying that group is certainly attacking Christianity and many are "using" the Deist argument (whether it be true or false). I was NOT implying that Deist's are Soros Socialist's, in fact I feel very close with Deist's. And no the Republican party doesn't own Christianity as Christians are able to vote for whom they like. No i wasn't dodging the debate as I was presenting examples of Christianity under attack in response to your ROFL. By the way you somewhat contradicted yourself admitting there are groups fighting Christianity out of fear of zealotry. And very succesfully might I add...IMO

There is no doubt that our founders did intend to relegate religion from realm of knowledge to opinion, otherwise the same tyrannical Government would follow whether that government be a theocracy, monarchy, or aristocracy. Thus obviously (if you want to label all of them with same brush)they had a Deist quality to their work. Though the question remains from these quotes what role did they see or want Christianity (religion) to play in the future of America?

By the way yes, Germany went off the deep end but it wasn't becuase of Christianity it was mostly because of Woodrow Wilson. I am just curious as to how you see zealotry playing out here in the America, what exactly are Christians trying to do that has everbody's shorts in bunch?

[mugs99]

and many are "using" the Deist argument

Yes, and many are using the Christian argument. In the past the kook fringe was ignored and we all got along. Now we are allowing the kooks, religious and secular, to divide us. "America is a Christian nation" plays a major role in that division.

I feel very close with Deist's

And I feel very close with Christians. I don't think Christians realize just how many Deists are among them. Very many Deists attend Christian services to please family and friends. "America is a Christian nation" makes them feel unwelcome, to say the least. They may believe Jesus was a great Jewish teacher and not a God, but they still find good in his message. In fact, I believe Deists respect Jesus more than any televangelist does.

By the way you somewhat contradicted yourself admitting there are groups fighting Christianity

"Somewhat" is the key word here. Sure, there are those who fight Christianity, but until recently their numbers were insignificant. The numbers are still small, but media coverage blows it out of all proportion. Politicians contribute to the hysteria to gain power on both sides. It's called divide and conquer. Radical Christians support government violating the Constitution for their benefit and radical secularists do the same. The end result is that we lose our Constitutional liberties by the actions of both sides.

Though the question remains from these quotes what role did they see or want Christianity (religion) to play in the future of America?

They wanted government to keep it's nose out of your religious beliefs and you to keep religion out of government. I could have posted letters by Adams, for example, on just that subject. Problem is, letters are always written with the recipient in mind. They just anger Christians and give fuel to anti-Christian tirades. Adams was a Deist, but he genuinely cared about Christians and would be offended to know his letters could be used to attack Christians in our times.

Washington was a Deist, but his wife and best friend were Christians. These guys wanted religion to help people in their daily lives, but they wanted religion to stay out of politics.

Sure they praised God and offered prayers in their speeches. They were relating to the people they were speaking to. They weren't like the dishonest political and religious leaders of today, who claim to be something they're not. The people back then accepted those prayers knowing full well that the men speaking those words were Deist. We may see a contradiction in that today, but they didn't back then. The Deists brought the Christians, Jews and Atheists together and they were respected for that. I think we should respect them for that too!

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, Jews or Christian of an Sect, or they may be Atheists."...George Washington
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[little jeremiah]

Moral Absolutes Ping.

What the heck, I'll ping you all to this thread directly. Interesting discussion, although someone caught the mod's eye and has since disappeared. :-> No loss.

Even if, for the sake of argument, some of these great men were Deists instead of being a believing member of a particular church, check out their writings! For instance, I read Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography a few months ago. We could use more Deists like him, barring any participation in Hellfire clubs.

Freepmail me if you want on/off this pinglist.

[Lancey Howard]

Great post, Coleus!!

[Sun]

Bump!

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

I have a question. I have always considered the Declaration of Independence the most important document of our nation. Without it, there would be no Consitution, no Bill of Rights.

I often hear the Declaration is not a legal document--exactly what does that mean? Does it mean it is irrelevant in a court of law?

[antisocial]

http://members.aol.com/Patriarchy/definitions/deism.htm


Not even close. :)

[antisocial]

http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/02-09-05.asp

Still not even close dude!

[Old Landmarks]

The U.S.A. was founded on biblical principles and by people who saw the Bible and biblical principles as the basis for their law and their culture.

They quoted the Bible all the time during debates and reasonings for lawmaking. That is the problem that I see today; the objections and the lying about the use of the Bible and biblical principles as a basis for law. The founders saw the use of the Bible as a basis for truth and law as a good thing, the revisionists of today have a problem with using the Bible as a basis for law and truth.

Anyone can have an opinion but the lying deserves a backlash by Americans setting the record straight that the use of the Bible and Christian principles as a basis for law does not equate to a theocracy, that is simply leftist newspeak.

[Sun]

Thanks for the links.

[Yellow Rose of Texas]

If you go back and research the founders, and others of their era, folks will find the Bible is listed as an important item in their wills. Many listed the Bible before any other property such as land, furniture, the best bed, second best bed, etc.

Religion as practiced in the Europe of their time was a country by country choice. Many who were Catholic in England or Protestant in Spain and France were executed for treason. Judaism and Islam were not tolerated at all in most European countries but were accepted in the colonies long before the Declaration of Independence. America was settled by Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Puritans, and so many others of different spiritual beliefs. They came here because of the freedom found to worship as they pleased openly and honestly, without fear of execution or ridicule.

It matters not what GOD the founders themselves believed to be supreme, but that religious tolerance was so important to them that it is included in the First Amendment to the Constitution. They envisioned a society full of religious diversity, not a country FREE from religion of any kind.

The First Amendment reads as follows: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishing of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ...

The Queen of England is still the head of the Church of England, as established by Henry VIII, at least on paper. The Anglican Church of the colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and more were originally part of the Church of England. The founders intent was to have no established COUNTRY wide religion.