Judge: Release Abu Ghraib Videos, Photos

A judge has ordered the government to release four videos from Abu Ghraib prison and dozens of photographs from the same collection as photos that touched off the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal a year ago.

The federal judge issued the order late Wednesday requiring the Army to release the material to the American Civil Liberties Union to comply with the Freedom of Information Act.

The ACLU said the material would show that the abuse was "more than the actions of a few rogue soldiers."

Judge Alvin Hellerstein said the 144 pictures and videos can be turned over in redacted form to protect the victims' identities. He gave the Army one month to release them.

The judge ordered the release after he viewed eight of the photos last week. They were given to the Army by a military policeman assigned to Abu Ghraib.

In October 2003, the ACLU filed a lawsuit seeking information on treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

"These images may be ugly and shocking ... (but) the American public deserves to know what is being done in our name," said Anthony D. Romero, executive director of the ACLU.

So far, 36,000 pages of documents and the reports of 130 investigations, mostly from the FBI and Army, have been turned over to the ACLU. The group is seeking documents from the CIA and the Department of Defense as well.

The judge said last week that he believed photographs "are the best evidence the public can have of what occurred" at the prison.

Government lawyer Sean Lane had argued that releasing pictures, even in redacted form, would violate Geneva Convention rules by subjecting the detainees to additional humiliation.

I agree 100%!!!! Release ALL the Abu Ghraib Videos and Photos. STARTING with THIS ONE!

http://www.aei.org/events/filter.all,eventID.844/transcript.asp

Naming Names: The Torturers of Saddam's Abu Ghraib and Their Place in the New Iraq

June 8, 2004

Unedited transcript prepared from a tape recording

10:15 a.m. Registration

10:30 Panelists: Five Saddam-era Torture Victims

Commentator: Richard Perle, AEI

Moderator: Michael Ledeen, AEI

12:30 p.m. Adjournment

Proceedings: MR. PERLE: Good morning. I'm Richard Perle, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. We are here this morning to learn more than most people know about things that went on during Saddam Hussein's regime. I haven't seen the video that we're now going to see, but I'm told that it is very difficult to watch. Difficult as it is, I expect that it will be easier for Michael, and me and others to watch it than for the gentlemen who we're privileged to have with us.

Their story is a remarkable story, both their suffering at the hands of the regime and, I'm happy to say, the interventions of Americans to make a modest contribution to putting things right. In a way, it's a metaphor for the American policy in Iraq.

We are making a modest effort to put things right, and I hope we are as successful in Iraq as we clearly have been in helping these gentlemen, too late, of course, but we've managed to help them, and we should proud of that. And the country is attempting to help all Iraqis, and we should be proud of that as well.

When the question of highlighting what you're about to see has been tossed around, we've heard the view expressed, including by some faint hearts in the administration, that this will be misinterpreted as an effort to obscure what happened in the Abu Ghraib prison when some people departed from all of the rules and customs of the United States in the humiliation of prisoners with which we are all familiar.

So it's, in a sense, politically incorrect now to be displaying the horrors of Saddam's regime, but it was to end that regime that we went to Iraq, and we must never lose sight of why we are there because, if we lose sight of why we're there, the lives that have been expended to get there and to liberate Iraq will be deeply diminished, and that would be a tragedy.

So I'm very grateful that these men are here and that we will have a chance to see an important part of the history that got the United States of America in Iraq.

MR. LEDEEN: To that, I'm Michael Ledeen, the resident scholar at AEI.

I would just like to add one other thing, which is this session today and this material is not just about Iraq's past, but it's also about the future of Iraq and, indeed, the future of the entire region because, unfortunately, the things that we're going to see here go on all of the time in the Middle East. In a certain sense, they have become the norm of tyrannical regimes throughout the Middle East.

And as we think about the questions that we at AEI are constantly trying to think about, which is what should policy be, what should American policy be--what should American policy be--I think it's important to keep in mind that what we should be about, in that part of the world and elsewhere, is to try to ensure that things like this are stopped, and that things like this do not continue and that the people who are involved in this kind of activity are not then given an opportunity to come back and rule again because this would be the most terrible thing of all.

[Pause.]

MR. LEDEEN: I'll just say again feel free to leave if it gets too much.

[Videotape played.]

MR. LEDEEN: Can we talk about these people and the torturers?

[Pause.]

INTERPRETER: His name is Sallah Heznon [ph], a teacher in high school. His age is 38 years old.

MR. HEZNON [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Those whom you have seen, those are the enemies of the United States and also the enemies of the new Iraq. Those are the same people who burned the bodies of Americans.

What we fear right now in the Iraq streets, those people are coming back, and I'm calling from this forum to have a shout or scream for everybody of stopping from the Ba'athists coming back to power. Give them retirement salaries, don't hurt them, but don't bring them back to power. This is part of their actions.

Thank you.

MR. FADLI [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Bassam Slaymon Fadli [ph], journalist in Iraqi Television. The most astonishing and surprising thing is some of those people we saw are already working with the United States and the United States forces in Iraq without the knowledge of the Americans of that.

I know, personally, a person who is a criminal and his crimes are even more what we saw in this video, and he is heading of workers groups inside the green zone, and that's part of our threats. Those people, they change their ideas, their addresses, and they change everything so not to be known. They have been doing this for the last 35 years, as have been in charge of Security and Intelligence.

Among those people, a person who came out in Fallujah, his name Majat el-Hani [ph], his surname is Abu Dhera [ph], and he appeared in Fallujah a few weeks ago, and he gave an interview to Al Jazeera Television. He covered his face, and during the interview he pulled down the cover, and he showed his face, and he said this time we're going to fight with our faces open. We don't need to hide our faces in the Fallujah events itself.

THE INTERPRETER: By the way, I forgot in my translation, this person was the head of the Security Service in the Kadhemya District that is north of Baghdad.

MR. FADLI [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: And he didn't work only just in Kadhemya District, but he worked in different parts of Baghdad. All Iraqis know him. He is very familiar place about what he done and his crimes, and I leave that to your imagination to see what's happening inside Iraq right now.

Iraqis knows the history of each person who is working, and part of what happens, when you leave things to the Americans, they don't have that background history for certain individuals when they hire them to work for them.

Thanks for you.

THE INTERPRETER: His name is Allah Shebhar [ph]. What you do?

MR. SHEBHAR [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Thirty-five years of oppression in Iraq, every corner of our homeland there is tragic memories. And the worst thing among what we saw on that tape is the fact that those criminals are still free in the street. Until now, those people, they threaten the other people from speaking out or expressing their opinion. And from here, I know my life is under threat right now, and I would like to ask for political asylum in the United States.

Thank you.

MR. ABDUL RAVA JHUDI [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Nazar Abdul Rava Jhudi [ph], 41 years old, Baghdad resident. Those killers whom we saw on the screen, one of those individuals who they amputated his tongue just because he criticized Saddam Hussein. Because even, as a matter of fact, the punishment for being openly critical of Saddam Hussein, you got punished all the way by execution. The students of Saddam Hussein are still alive. They've never been punished, and they are running the streets. They used to kill and used to see blood around them. When they amputated our hands, there were seven of us. They took our hands. They amputated parts, and they took it to be shown to Saddam Hussein directly.

Those people, blood is part of their life, and they should be punished and killed. Those people who killed us, they are the same people who are killing the American soldiers right now.

Thank you.

MR. KAVAM [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: My name Hassam Ghadar Kavam [ph]. I am age 47 years old. I cannot add that much because the picture is so horrible, it's self-explanatory, but I feel very disappointed that the media till now didn't show Saddam's crimes against humanity. These type of actions or crimes, by themselves, they should be enough to silence those who defend Saddam Hussein.

I question why we see only these films in special projections in special meetings and not be open to the public for the rest of the people to see it, and I hope that will happen soon.

Thank you.

MR. LEDEEN: If you have any questions, please, when you get the microphone, identify yourself.

MS. SCHRAEDER: Katy Schraeder with the Associated Press.

I was wondering, Bassam, if you could tell us more about the individuals you identified in the video, give us more about them, even the spellings of their names, please.

MR. FADLI [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: One of the individuals who broke the arm, his name is, it came in the translation as Farhas Jumah or Farhak Jumah, and I'm not sure, I think the first name is not accurate, but I know this individual by name, by the look, and I think he is right now a chief editor of one of the newspapers in Baghdad.

When I go to Baghdad, I will try to surely identify him to be sure that he is the same individual, but he looks to me more that he is that head of that newspaper right now.

THE INTERPRETER: Do you need the spelling?

MS. SCHRAEDER: And the newspaper.

MR. FADLI [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: I don't remember it last now. Last name, there is more than 200 newspapers, so I don't remember exactly which newspaper he is heading right now, but for the spelling of the last name Jumah, J-u-m-a-h.

MS. WINKLER: Claudia Winkler, the Weekly Standard magazine.

My question is what will it take to arrest these men and try them? These speakers say that these men are well-known in Iraq. Their identity is well-known. Will a new Iraqi government be able to bring them to justice?

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Those is not necessarily we know him ourselves, individually, but those are a part of the circle who surrounded the regime, the old regime, and those are the same people who are right now crying and complaining that they don't have a way of living, and they don't have work to do. And these are their actions.

And each person who open his mouth or declare de-Baathification as a necessary action, those people will be punished and even hurt for just giving the opinion of supporting the de-Baathification.

Do you know who is the head of the De-Baathification Committee in Iraq, and the Iraqi street who used to support him for that work? Ahmad Chalabi. And see what happened to him right now. The Ba'athists are still strong, and please help us to get rid of them.

Thank you.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: If you ask not just this group, but so many Iraqis who have been tortured by the previous regime, they know tens and hundreds of names and individuals who participated in these terrible actions, and they are still afraid.

And there is a neighborhood, as a matter of fact, there is a neighborhood in Baghdad called the al-Muhabarat neighborhood, which means the Intelligence Service neighborhood. And this neighborhood, with its residence still there, and they live in a neighborhood with high-rise building, and it's filled with people. And the Northern Eye went to these buildings, and we were surprised they were still filled up with all of those people who used to be in the Intelligence Service. That's just for example, one of the examples.

MR. McCORMICK: My name is Mark McCormick with AEI. Why do you think the Americans are not prosecuting these criminals?

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: One of the things is the Americans cannot identify those people. We don't want the Americans to go and arrest people haphazardly. We need people to be sure they are committed these crimes to be arrested and identified. One of the problems is the Americans did not use elements of the Iraqi who were part of the opposition who they could work against those people, and I think that's one of the ways to help identifying those people and to bring them to justice.

[Pause.]

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: For example, some of the political parties who were active inside Iraq during Saddam, like Dawa Party and the Islamic High Revolutionary Command, and who they, by themselves, they identify a lot of the individuals who were prosecuting them during the regime of Saddam.

The best witnesses is the victims themselves, the victims of the torture. Those people, they should be encouraged to come forward and testify and identify those people.

QUESTIONER: Thanks. This is [?] from Turkey's Star Daily and TV. I have a question. Do you all feel that your lives will be threatened once you go back to Baghdad because you, personally, received American help? And do you all feel the intention to seek political asylum in this country?

Thank you.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: I am personally asked for to be provided a secure place outside Iraq to stay in because I'm not personally afraid from being hurt by those elements, but most of the majority of Saddam Hussein's victims, they have been killed. Their heads been cuts or been put in mass graves. There are only a few who are the live witnesses of Saddam Hussein's crimes. I consider myself we are among them, and we are going to be an easy element for these elements who are, could be thousands of supporter of Saddam Hussein, who they don't want us to be witnesses for Saddam Hussein's crimes.

So, under that argument, I'm saying that's the reason we need to be protected because we are the only witnesses who could witness against the crimes of that regime.

The protection period I am asking is just, I'm asking the American people to protect me just to be a live witness when Saddam Hussein puts on trial. And after Saddam Hussein puts on trial, I don't care what will happen to me after that because I think my life is already finished, and there is no purpose for me to live, only to be doing that one single action of being a witness at Saddam Hussein's trial about his crimes.

MR. SWISHER: My name is Clay Swisher. I work for CNO Resources.

I'd like to ask the panel a general question. There have been many reports in the American press about a Pentagon memo that approved the use of torture for our military. Now, clearly, I don't think anyone thinks, for a second, that we would do anything at the levels of what we just saw in that horrible video. But after all of your terrible experiences, I wanted to ask your opinion, do any of you think that there are any appropriate uses of torture, whether it be Americans trying to get information from insurgents who are attacking them in Iraq or any other situation?

Thank you.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: I would like to say that was an abnormal situation that happened in the Iraqi Army. And we actually, the whole world actually didn't like this, but at the same time we saw that, within the American government, they shoot against them and took some action. And we actually didn't use to see that with our old regime because, no, in the opposite way. They used to reward the people who used to punish us and torture us, so there is a big difference.

And removing Abu Ghraib prison, it's a very good way, and we support it. So we are going to forget about the tyranny and not even remember it any more.

Thank you.

MS. ORIN: Deborah Orin from the New York Post. I wonder what you think of the new Iraqi government, whether you have confidence that this new government will be able to make steps toward dealing with the people.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: In my opinion, I believe these are really good news for us and for the new Iraq. As an Iraqi, I would like to say that, even so this government, it wasn't really generally elected by the whole Iraqi people. It was elected within the Iraqi Council, but it's still we are very happy with it. We are sure that it's not a government that will do the same bad things that the old regime used to do. And we, again, I want to say that I consider this is really good news for us, and we are looking forward to see our future government and how they are going to rebuild Iraq, and I believe that will take some time.

QUESTIONER: My name is [?] with Al Jazeera TV. These are horrible pictures. I mean--

[Questioner started speaking Arabic.]

QUESTIONER: [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: --our hearts are with you. These are really horrible footages. They are heartbreaking.

[Questioner revered to English.]

QUESTIONER: My question is for Mr. Perle. You have said that this will be translated by the faint of heart in the administration as a cover-up on Abu Ghraib prison. Who are those people in the administration that were against this, and what's your view on the memos that we have seen in the press in the past two days?

MR. PERLE: I don't know enough about the memos to comment on them, and I don't want to say who's faint-hearted within the administration, but it seems to me that what we have seen today should be seen generally. And unless I'm mistaken, none of our networks has seen fit to cover it.

I've been in many meetings related to Iraq over the last few years. This room was generally full and the room next to it full. It isn't today. I think it's obvious that the interest on the part of the press in this story is a good deal less than the interest on the part of the press in other stories, including obviously stories about Abu Ghraib today.

This remark is not intended in any way to justify what happened at Abu Ghraib or to deflect an answer to your question about the memos. I just don't have any knowledge about those memos, but I can't help but observe that there is a good deal less interest in this story than in stories that seem to me to be of lesser importance, and I think that's very sad.

MR. LEDEEN: Is Al Jazeera going to broadcast this?

[Tape change.]

QUESTIONER: [Speaking Arabic.]

THE INTERPRETER: As you notice, his answer was really long, so I was trying to keep up. He was giving a question directly to Mr. Adrisi [ph], and he was asking him if there are Arabic channels and the digital by itself, is it doing a fair job by showing what's going on in Iraq, by showing the Iraqis and their stories, and the things that we saw already now in film? Were they fair by talking about these things and let the whole world know about it?

And he also said are the other Arabic channels fair with us to send our voices and let it be heard to many parts in this world? And those are witnesses about the crimes that we used to deal with on a daily basis and our lives with the old regime under Saddam. Do we need to name those who call themselves at the moment the insurgents or the fighters, do we need to call them insurgents, they are fighting for their country? Do we need to say that they have the justification? Are their crimes that they are doing now justified?

And I want to give this question to you, Mr. Adrisi and want you to know that those insurgents now are actually doing a lot of horrible things, and actually they are not doing good things. Because of them, Iraqis still don't have the power yet, and they still don't have water, and health services and many other things. Actually, they are like speed bump stopping on the way to rebuild Iraq.

So what do you think, are they fair in showing in showing our stories?

MR. : I'm sorry to turn from journalist into an event.

I would like to tell you, first of all, that our bureau chief had a program about a week or two ago that invited four or seven of you, and they had their hands amputated. So Al Jazeera is showing everything that there is. You can't blame, it has become fashionable in this city to just criticize Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera is just saying what's happening. We have many interviews of American officials, Iraqi officials, everybody who has something to say. We are saying it as it is. It's like when you see something on C-SPAN, basically, Al Jazeera is a mini C-SPAN in the Arab World.

They show everything there is to show, and then we are being criticized by the people on the right and the people on the left. We have shown those people, four of them or five of them live, unedited, and they told their stories. We had many other shows that showed the atrocities of the regime of Saddam Hussein, and we are just telling it as it is.

Unfortunately, it doesn't get the right attitude from some people at the time. If somebody doesn't like what's being said, President Bush and American people, American officials, and Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft are live on Al Jazeera every time they have something to say. So I don't know what to say other than that we have been adding all of these things.

MR. : [Off microphone.] [Inaudible.]

MR. LEDEEN: Could you identify yourself, please.

MR. : Al Jazeera Voice.

MR. LEDEEN: Identify.

MR. AL JAZARI: El-Saddam's voice. I'm Nofel Al Jazari [ph]. I am from South Africa, from An-Najaf. Everybody knows--

MR. : [Speaking Arabic.]

MR. AL JAZARI: My name Nofel Al Jazari. I'm engineer from An-Najaf.

Al Jazeera TV is, and was, Saddam's voice, everybody know in Iraq. Okay? We believe Saddam in prison now, but his voice still alive. His voice Al Jazeera TV and Al Arabya TV, and everybody know.

[Pause.]

MR. : Didn't you appear on the Al Jazeera channel, and you said everything that you wanted to say?

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: Didn't you see on the Al Jazeera screen TV Ahmad Chalabi and other members in Iraqi Council were interviewed for at least half an hour?

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: I don't really see Al Jazeera channel that much. And I would like to add one more thing. Here, we are not saying to discuss the [inaudible] and network, and media and the war [?], it's the message. And every satellite channel--

[Simultaneous Conversation.]

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: We are not politicians, but because we suffered a lot we started blaming other [inaudible]. So, please, don't be sensitive and be aggressive about what you are saying.

THE INTERPRETER: He said that Al Jazeera showed that Saddam was a good Muslim, and he did that to the Islam rule to cut your, to amputate your hands.

MR. LEDEEN: Please, the gentleman in the back?

MR. WINOGRAD: Yes, I'm a journalist. My name is Jeffrey Winograd. I edit a newsletter called "Focus Israel" here in Washington, and I have two questions, please.

Ahmad Chalabi spoke here early this year, and he made a comment concerning the Palestinians and Israel. And he said a new Iraqi government would not fight the battles of other people, and he was referring to Palestinians.

My first question is what is the average view of Iraqis towards Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

And my second question is why do you think the Bush administration is now trying to discredit Ahmad Chalabi?

Thank you.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: I want to repeat that again. We are not politicians, and we don't know Ahmad Chalabi's opinions, and this question has to be directed to Ahmad Chalabi.

But I have to say all Iraqis, we are people that admire freedom, and Iraqis have religious leaders and politician leaders, and we are committed to our opinions and what they are saying.

Thank you.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: One more thing I want to add. There is a big difference between the Palestinian case and the Iraqi case. What's happening in Palestine, that there is another people coming to, it's like they want to get rid of them all, and it's like they want to get rid of all people and then take their land.

Iraq, no. The occupation is going. And as far as I know that even the occupation forces gave a deadline to the occupying forces to leave Iraq. And as you have seen, Saddam and other dictators like him, who is going to replace him, who is going to get rid of him--the Iraqi people? So, in my opinion, this is the difference between the Palestinian and Iraqi case.

MR. : [INTERPRETED FROM ARABIC]: When we fought the British in 1920, when the scientists had made this decision--religious leaders, sorry--you saw how the Iraqis stood against them in the 1920s.

We are the grandsons of the 1920 revolution that, unfortunately, didn't get any lights on it. And when we decide something, we will do it. We were really the first one in the line.

MR. PERLE: I'd like to thank you all for coming. It's always a pleasure to have these sessions and try to advance understanding of basic questions. I think it's been an unusually educational and productive discussion, and we hope to see you at future events.

Thank you.

[Applause.]

[Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned.]

Click for 4 minute Video in Windows Media format. Video of Iraqi torture victims [VERY GRAPHIC; NOT SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN]

For the last 30 years, Iraqis inside Iraq had little knowledge of the full extent of Saddam Hussein's oppressive tactics. Many Iraqis who have documented his regime's history argue that Coalition authorities have not done enough to make this history known to the Iraqi people, and proponents of more stringent de-Baathification argue that until this education is completed, Saddam-era officials cannot be trusted with the rule of the new state.

Much of the recent controversy surrounding Abu Ghraib has made only vague reference to the prison's nightmarish past. Under Saddam Hussein, some thirty thousand people were executed there, and countless more were tortured and mutilated, returning to Iraqi society as visible evidence of the brutality of Baathist rule instead of being lost to the anonymity of mass graves.

Seven of these victims were Baghdadi merchants whose right hands were amputated and presented to Saddam as proof of their punishment. They have recently received medical attention in the United States, and now have the use of modern prosthetic hands. Four of these victims will speak of their experiences before returning to Iraq. In addition to their presentations, an unedited video documenting acts of torture during Saddam's reign will be shown, and our Iraqi guests will identify persons conducting the torture who hold office in Iraq today.

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