Posted on 05/27/2005 10:53:33 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
Taxing articles of consumption makes FAR more sense and is much more in keeping with what the founders envisioned.
The owner of the money can make his own decision about how to spend the money hence, how to be taxed.Right. The FairTax is a "voluntary" tax. You buy that bunk?
Under a NRST we are not shackled to having a portion of our income confiscated by some unknown power.Really? Where do you get the money to pay the FairTax on your purchases? Income maybe?
If you and ll(puke) have your way we will not be able to create wealth, we will not be able to make our own decisions about when to pay taxes, we will not be able to decide for ourselves.We were talking about retired people and they have already created their wealth (some of which you want to double tax). They can make a decision when to pay tax on their savings.
It seems to me that you and ll are nothing more than the spokesmen for the socialists party.LMAO! You FairTaxers always try to camouflage your ignorance by throwing the "socialist/Marxist/communist" tag around. In the end I am none of those and you are still ignorant.
I'm sorry, but you have to understand that you guys are very fond of the government. Am I wrong?Yes, government is really groovy. It's got a great beat that you can really dance to.
"With a Flat Tax that IRS is still in place and can audit you, therefore it is still a bad choice."
And, exactly what will there be to audit? With no deductions there isn't much to audit is there? If you're the typical wage earner with mostly W-2 or 1099 income, what's there to fear from an 'audit'?
With an NRST, OTOH, every business owner in the US will be faced with audits of their receipts and tax collections. The IRS may be renamed but there will still be jobs for all those bureaucrats checking on compliance with their new tax collectors, ie, the businessman.
Not if you're 70 1/2. You HAVE to spend it. Or at least take it out of the retirement plan and pay taxes on it.
Right. The FairTax is a "voluntary" tax. You buy that bunk?
Certainly. I pay income taxes at the point of a gun. You do too. I don't buy anything at the point of a gun. Neither do you. Nor will we.
"Therefore, those in favor of modernizing the current code should work towards enacting the flat tax. It solves the problem and it is politically achievable."
That depends on how you define "the problem". If you believe, as I do, that perpetuating a bias in favor of foreign producers in our own tax system is a bad idea, then the flat tax certainly does little in that regard. If you also believe that ignoring the looming insolvency of Social Security and passing it along to the next generation is not advisable, then the flat tax does not seem the way to go.
Even though the flat tax addresses the problem of simplicity and higher compliance costs, history has taught us that any such gains will be temporary in nature.
Even though the flat tax addresses the problem of simplicity and higher compliance costs,
In reality the flat tax actually does little in those regards for businesses, the number of tax brackets in the tax code has little to do with it's real complexity. The rules designed to separating income/profit to be taxed from return of capital not taxed is where the complexity lay in every "income" tax system, not the number of brackets.
Vern Hoven's analysis of the Flat Tax and its impact on business tax returns and on folks receiving more than just wages, is one of the best explanations of what the Flat Tax, as it is proposed in legislation rather than simplistic hype, is about:
Flat Tax as Seen by a Tax Preparer
by Vern Hoven
Amen. Even if the 16th is repealed, we'd still end up with both. Congress doesn't pay much attention to the Constitution anymore.
There is NO form of "Tax Reform" that congress would allow to result in LOWER TAXES!
After all that is the currency with which they buy your vote.
"the flat tax best meets the goal of collecting revenue"
Damnit! I already paid tax on the tires on my truck when I bought them. Now they want to tax me when I get a flat?
For example, the IRS accuses you of not paying your 'Flat Tax' and they audit ALL your accounts, receipts and bank records.
There is still not right to personal privacy with a "Flat Tax", unlike a Retail Sales Taxes which is audits on the business end, not the personal end.
And, exactly what will there be to audit? With no deductions there isn't much to audit is there? If you're the typical wage earner with mostly W-2 or 1099 income, what's there to fear from an 'audit'?
Plenty, when the IRS suspects cash transactions hiding income, and it digs into your finances to determine whether or not you have a little side business going. With only a report card sized return, that audit becomes wide open.
I suggest you read Vern Hoven's take on the Flat Tax, before you start throwing records out of the boxes in your closet.
mash u'r clicker here ==> Flat Tax as Seen by a Tax Preparer
by Vern Hoven
With an NRST, OTOH, every business owner in the US will be faced with audits of their receipts and tax collections. The IRS may be renamed but there will still be jobs for all those bureaucrats checking on compliance with their new tax collectors, ie, the businessman.
Actually only retail business will be subject to audits by their State sales tax administrators, just as they are today, no change there as they already are subject to those sales tax audits.
What businesses won't be saddled with are the kind of audits that are typical of income taxes that dig underneath grandma's stockings sniffing out the details of that business expense they figure you should not have taken in your weekend sideline under the "Flat Tax".
"There is still not right to personal privacy with a "Flat Tax", unlike a Retail Sales Taxes which is audits on the business end, not the personal end."
BS. Just wait until non-compliance becomes a problem and the auditors start requiring proof that you've paid the NRST on every bit of property you have. There goes your 'right to privacy'.
"lenty, when the IRS suspects cash transactions hiding income, and it digs into your finances to determine whether or not you have a little side business going. With only a report card sized return, that audit becomes wide open."
And, when the government begins to believe non-compliance with the NRST has become a problem, just how are you going to deal with the 'inspectors' who arrive to ensure that you've paid the NRST on every damn thing you own? You'll just love those 'audits'.
And, when the government begins to believe non-compliance with the NRST has become a problem, just how are you going to deal with the 'inspectors' who arrive to ensure that you've paid the NRST on every damn thing you own?
Audits for sales taxes are on the collectors and remitters of sales taxes(i.e. retail businesses) to assure their compliance in tax reporting, that is the function of any audit even the audits under the IRS today, to assure the validity of income reporting in the case of the income tax, and assure required sales tax collections are reported accurately in a retail sales tax.
The tax administrator's audit has nothing to do with purchasers of anything. Only sellers.
Obviously where there is sufficient cause to believe a crime has been committed by an individual such as tax fraud an investigation under court ordered search warrants and the such is possible as with the investigation of any crime. That however is an entirely different issue altogether.
You collude with Viny down the street, in black market purchases, Viny has been known to sqeal on his partners in crime, that is how an individual gets drawn into criminal investigations for tax fraud in a sales tax system. That however has nothing to do with a tax administrator's audit. If your dealing with Vinny, you only have yourself to blame if you end up in of some prosecutor's net.
Exactly what is needed !!!!!
The flat tax will replace the current tax code with a flat-rate income tax that treats all Americans equally.
Exactly what is needed !!!!!
Nice in theory, except no Flat Tax proposal ever introduced to Congress has ever done that.
Right off the bat every flat tax proposal provides very large personal exemptions that divide Americans into two camps, those that must file, and those below the exemption limits that aren't required to file.
Next is the difference in treatment of the self-employed American as compared to the wage earner.
Next is the difference in treatment of the Americans receiving interest, dividends and capital gains who are not taxed at all under the Flat Tax, as compared to the American that receives only his wage who get taxed by the Flat Tax, as well as the SS/Medicare taxes that are still very much a part of the tax system.
We really need to dump the political hype the "Flat Tax" has been sold with and look at the reality as implemented in the legislation. The two are miles apart.
A good place to start is with the analysis done by Vern Hoven back when Armey, Forbes et. al. were pushing the "Flat Tax" hype during the 2000 political campaigns.
It should be based on income including any and all other sources of income including interest etc. It should have a graduated poverty level. We would still need the IRS no matter how they reform the tax code it just would not be the mega instutition it is now. VAT would be worse than what we have now.
I am trying to understand this.
If I decide to work 80 hours instead of just 40 a week, I will be taxed twice as much as the lazy guy?
It should be based on income including any and all other sources of income including interest etc.
What should be, and what is are generally not the same things when reduced to actual legislation.
Seems to me that one ought to question why taxation "should" be based on income at all.
Income taxes whatever the form are among the most personally intrusive of tax systems and most subject to political abuse. I don't see tax on incomes as a "should be" at all especially if the citizen is to have a functional affect in controlling the size and power of government.
The income tax just puts government in the driver's seat with first claim on the use of personal resources. I simply don't by the notion that income tax is the way to go. For at the root of the income tax is a glaring inequity that can never be overcome in a free society.
Seems we never learn from history:
- When there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.
We would still need the IRS no matter how they reform the tax code it just would not be the mega instutition it is now.
Really? How does that come about, you mean everyone will magically report all income just because there's a single rate instead of multiple ones. Don't think so. Audits are to determine accuracy of reporting the right amounts on the tax returns. Don't know any thing about a flat rate that will assure all income is reported to be taxed.
It should have a graduated poverty level.
Ahhh, what's a graduated poverty level? You are either at a povertylevel or you're not. If it changes the rate of the tax one pays on all their income, how does that differ from a progressive or graduated income tax.
How does this graduated poverty level work? Which politicians get to set up the criteria for my povertylevel. On what basis do they decide someone else is in poverty and I am not? Do lobbiests and special interest get a say in setting the rules for your "graduated poverty level?" If not, how do you have a say in how this "graduated poverty level" is set.
VAT would be worse than what we have now
That may be true, however I not interested in VATs or any tax system that hides the cost of government from the eyes of the electorate. To do so just puts government imposed horse blinders on the citizen assuring no accountability and a perpetual constituency for an ever growing government.
What we pay to maintain government should be proportionate to our consumption of the nation's resources assuring a clear measure of the cost of government in direct comparison to the benefit we derive, and not on what we produce for the nation's benefit as measured by our income. People should pay taxes in accordance with what they take out of the common pot, not on what they contribute to it.
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