How good was the Good War?

The Boston Glob ^ | 5/8/05 | By Geoffrey Wheatcroft

[steve-b]

There is no way of knowing whether or not the field commander (a Wehrmacht officer, and thus probably not a Nazi per se) who gave the order actually intended to make a bombardment, whether he even had authority to make such a bombardment, or whether this was bluffing.

Yeah, right, General Schmidt (German Commander of the 39th Army Corps) was a mere flunky, so far beneath the notice of Berlin that they didn't pay any particular attention to whether or not he was loyal to the Fuerher.

When you're in a hole, stop digging.

[redgolum]

Hitler's war was a mainly idealogical war. By "total war" I was meaning a war where there are no limits to what is acceptable to attack. You meant a war where close to 100% of the people are involved in some sort of war enterprise.

Hitler couldn't start doing your meaning of total war right away. He had promised the German people revenge on their enemies for a relatively cheap price. If he had started off demanding full mobilization, the Germans would have never rolled into Poland. The plan was to keep the general populace fat and happy and gradually raise up the mobilization as needed. When the ill conceived eastern front started, the manpower and resources needed for the effort quickly grew.

Yes, the Soviets practiced slash and burn delaying tactics. Which they have been doing since at least the Middle ages. When you have a whole lot of land to retreat and regroup through, that works rather well. (Never start a land war in Asia)

As for purposely destroying a country they were trying to conquer, you realize that the ideology of the Nazis was to do just that don't you? They wanted to populate the Ukraine and other states with Germanic feudal lords. They tried to wipe out any previous history of the indigenous peoples, and would blow up cultural landmarks and infrastructure because it "wasn't Aryan".

Did that make much sense? Nope. If the German army had tried a different tact with the people they might of caused a revolution in the Soviet states! The Germans were first greeted as liberators in the Ukraine, but when they started to try to "Aryanize" the country it only fueled the partisan movement. In fact, Stalin feared the partisans, because he realized that they would probably rise up against him next.

[steve-b]

It obviously does not make sense for Germany to purposefully destroy a country it is attempting to occupy and exploit economically

Irrelevant, as the actual German objective was to exterminate the Slavic untermenschen and fill the land with proper Aryans.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Yeah, right, General Schmidt (German Commander of the 39th Army Corps) was a mere flunky, so far beneath the notice of Berlin that they didn't pay any particular attention to whether or not he was loyal to the Fuerher.

How many Wehrmacht officers were members of the Nazi Party? Not many. Don't you have to have been a member to really be counted as a Nazi? Aren't you aware of how many Army plots by high-up officers there were to remove Hitler, and how many betrayed the country to pass secrets like Admiral Canaris did?

Newer historical research has also brought forth evidence that the German military-industrial complex was planning in the mid-1920's a rebirth of the Armed Forces into something almost identical to the program ultimately adopted by Hitler. Such evidence suggests that the Wehrmacht may have had much more clout and influence than previously thought in forcing its own terms into the Nazi program. Rather than Hitler dragging them kicking and screaming into what he wanted, it looks much more like it was the other way around.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

From #35: That's moronic. The Germans had war industry in those cities. The Jews weren't exactly making B-24's in the ghettos.

LOL -- somebody who doesn't understand a reference to the "B-24" (and doesn't know how to look it up and correct his ignorance) accusing somebody else of being "unable to read and understand". That's rich!

My response was that the Jews were doing exactly that - working in war industries in the ghettoes for Germany. Where you get the idea that I am saying they were making B24's is beyond me. Apparently you are unable to read anything critically though, or to read through the origins of quotes before commenting.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

When the ill conceived eastern front started, the manpower and resources needed for the effort quickly grew.

Only ill-concevied if you believe that Germany should have sat back to wait for Stalin's attack, rather than striking at the opportune time.

As for purposely destroying a country they were trying to conquer, you realize that the ideology of the Nazis was to do just that don't you? They wanted to populate the Ukraine and other states with Germanic feudal lords.

You populate a country most easily that has not been totally destroyed in war.

If the German army had tried a different tact with the people they might of caused a revolution in the Soviet states!

I don't disagree. But as it was, the Germans were able to recruit over 3 million Russians and Ukranians to fight with them. You have to wonder how much more they could really accomplish.

[iconoclast]

and college punks who've never served

Like that immortal warrior George W the Great?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Irrelevant, as the actual German objective was to exterminate the Slavic untermenschen and fill the land with proper Aryans.

Setting aside this questionable assertion with little basis in actual conduct or plans (using Slavs as a agricultural labor pool, ala the Teutonic Knights in the 1100-1400 period, seems much closer to actual intentions), destroying farm animals and farmhouses does nothing to help "fill the land with Aryans". So it is hardly irrelevant.

[DTogo]

Non-combat service is still service.

[Jimmyclyde]

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself whether Hitler didn't have such bombers built because he fundementally did not believe in prosecuting that sort of war (a total war against civilians?).

Except the Jews of course and you don't need bombers when you have ovens.

Stop deluding yourself.

Hitler's SS killed millions of innocent civilians up close and personal, with a bullet in the head then buried in a mass grave. Nice.

That's the first thing they did when they entered a country.

Murder, rape, and pillage.

This was the Nazi way in France, Holland, Poland, Russia. Name the country and I'll show you innocent civilians murdered by Hitler's SS troops.

[iconoclast]

If WWII was not a Good War, then no war can be a good war. That's the thinking of a pacifist and I reject that view.

Here's some other views:

"What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world." .......... Robert E. Lee

"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." R. E .Lee

And, if I may humbly attempt to edit these words of this great man to bring them into concert with 21st century America:
It is well that war is unexperienced by the vast majority of citizens, so that we may grow fond of it without restraint.

And finally, a personal favorite:

"The devil's name is dullness." Robert E. Lee

[Jimmyclyde]

ping

[Jimmyclyde]

Great quotes!!

[redgolum]

Ill conceived in that the Barbarossa attack began to late in the summer, with no winter supplies, and no plans for resupply. Never mind the fact that England was still active on the western front, with the possibility of the US joining in.

Also, if Hitler hadn't committed to taking Stalingrad and the no retreat policy, the Sixth army would of lasted longer.

You populate a country most easily that has not been totally destroyed in war.

Correct. If you are an occupying force, it pays to have the population on your side. The Nazi's didn't see that. Yes, they had whole divisions of Russians and Ukrainians, and the Charlemagne division from France, but the fact remains that most of the population went from cheering the Germans to working against them.

[iconoclast]

You think I’ll weep for “scores of thousands of women and children”?

Do thoughtful utterances like that ever leave a bad taste in your mouth?

[Captain Rhino]

the German Army was THE outstanding tactical fighting force of the war, even with the dead strategic hand of Adolph Hitler at it's controls.

A number of years ago, I read a very scholarly study written by Martin Van Crefeld (sp) while he was a contractor here in Northern Virginia about the fighting efficiency of the Wehrmacht in WWII. It had been promoted by to early (late 1940s-1950s) attempts under the leadership of the famous Colonel Dupuy, USA to model combat outcomes using computers of the era. The simulations used battles from WWII as the subjects because they had accurate order of battle information and knew the actual outcomes of the battles. However, the modeling had a problem. They could never get the modeling outcome to match the actual outcome of the battle unless they INCREASED the troop strength of the German forces by 50%. This efficiency was present in all battles from 1939 to 1945 and it did not matter if the Germans were on the offensive or defensive.

Never has any army (German) in history fought so well for so monstrous a cause.

A warning, if ever one was needed, against turning the state into a religion and its leader into a God.

While we would not have been has inhumanly profligate as the Soviets were in expending human capital, it is safe to say that hundreds of thousands of baby boomers alive today would have perished with their fathers in the mud of European battlefields

My father was an 8th Air Force bomber crewman, so include me among those who would not have seen daylight had the war not ended when it did. Since he was regular Army and Army Air Corps before WWII started, he was not eligible for the 25 mission rotation. He flew over 120 missions during 1943 to 1945, was wounded(lightly) twice, and shot down/crashed three times.

It was just a matter of time before his number came up. Sure glad it didn't.

[Captain Rhino]

promoted = prompted

[iconoclast]

Non-combat service is still service.

Would I be presuming too much from your rather restrained reply to guess that you know a little more than some FReepers about the lead up to George's "service"? ;o)

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Except the Jews of course and you don't need bombers when you have ovens.

I already mentioned this. Don't bother replying and insulting if you can't read the entire response.

[iconoclast]

A warning, if ever one was needed, against turning the state into a religion and its leader into a God.

Amen and amen!

Print it boldly on the next batch of dollar bills and all that follow for perpetuity!