Posted on 03/14/2005 3:21:14 PM PST by Archon of the East
Shooting enemy combatants in the back would be from the John F. Kerry code of military justice
Does that mean that Lt Potano should run for the senate? Or President?
Does that mean that Lt Potano should run for the senate? Or President?................
AND be awarded the Silver Star with a "V" for valor?
Kraut spies caught on US soil during WWII were executed.
BTTT!!!!!!
After a trial. Summary execution without a trial of anyone is not legal under US law. It is, however, legal under the Geneva Convention. So, are you arguing that the Geneva Convention trumps US sovereignty?
Yes. However, the FIRST thing that has to happen is that the results have to be positive--and there will still be a serious investigation. Two dead possible jihadis who cannot be questioned is not a positive outcome of violating orders.
Being in combat did not exempt me from the requirement to obey orders. Indeed, the reason the military is so anal about obeying orders is because discipline is the only thing maintaining the barest minimum of control over events on the battlefield.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody is denying that these were two terrorists(insurgents, for the PC types), yet this guy is still facing murder charges.
Bottom line: nobody knows. Funny thing about shooting someone: you can't question stiffs after you've killed them. (BTW, Pantano, by his own admission, fired 60 rounds on BURST across a period of at least 40 seconds. Looks like he has some impulese control issues.)
It also pi$$es me off that so many armchair generals and lawyers want to hang this guy for killing two TERRORISTS.
It pi$$es me off that so many armchair generals and lawyers want to call this guy a hero for endangering his own men and denying access to whatever intel these two had because they get their notions of what war is and how it works from reading Sgt. Rock comic books.
You do wonder why the media didn't pick up on the old "exploding rice in the butt" strategy for war heroes.
Thanks...funny.
Just to be clear on my position: Before I go all nutty, I'll wait for the Marine's investigation into this incident.
From my experience covering Article 32s as a reporter for a military paper (I'm a civilian dependent), justice is usually served UNLESS Congressmen become involved and it becomes a political circus.
Let the system work and hope the uninformed, un-inculcated congressional staffer weenies STAY OUT of the process.
It doesn't.
Self-defense is the key issue in the case that the Art. 32 hearing and the general court, if it gets that far, will have to sort out.
His story, as I understand it, is that the terrorists made some sudden moves while searching the car and failed to respond to orders, making him think they were preparing to use some kind of weapon left in the car.
The prosecution will emphasize the fact that he uncuffed the terrorists to put them in the car, shot them from behind and fired a high number of rounds into them.
The reports I've read indicate there are two witnesses who saw the whole thing, Pantano and the NCO who is the accusing witness. An awful lot will come down to who presents as the more believable witness, something we don't know.
There is so much uncertainty and risk for both sides, my prediction is there will be a plea bargain at some point.
Ding, Ding, Ding.....We have a winner.....NC Congressman Walter B. Jones has decided that there should be no investigation and that the charges against Pantano be dropped ASAFP.
http://jones.house.gov/html/release.cfm?id=288
House Resolution 167 will declare House of Representative support for Lt. Ilario Pantano because continuing with these charges will cause Marines to second-guess themselves in combat. Personally, if a Marine or Soldier was pondering whether he should shoot two people in the back "execution style" as the RTO stated happened, then I WOULD want a Marine to second guess himself.
The problem is, the way this Article 32 investigation is being portrayed in the media, Marines and Soldiers will think that they cannot shoot two people coming at them, which would be 100% legal. I understand and appreciate this Representative's support of this Marine, but this is not an issue that should be put up for public debate.
Congress wondered why the evidence collected during the Abu Ghrabe 15-6 investigation was not given to Congress earlier. This is exactly the reason why. You get Congress involved, and it turns into a big CF.
The only people who have any relevant statements to make are Pantano, the Corpsman, and the Radio Operator. They were there. Congressman Jones was not. They will have the opportunity to present their testimony at the Article 32.
Now, Jones' district includes the city of Swansboro, home of Camp Lejeune. I wonder why he is making this case a public spectacle, and not allowing the Marine Corps to do their job, which according to the Rules of Court Martial 303 is to conduct an investigation into this misconduct. I recommend that we revisit Representative Jones when it comes time for his reelection and see how much he uses this Resolution on the stump. He is missing the forest for this one tree. I wonder if he is good friends with Charles Gittens?
Now, let's say for instance this goes to a GCM and Pantano is convicted, THEN I would agree that the time would be right to pass this resolution. Ask for clemency because this Marine thought that he was doing the right thing.
But, trying this case in the media and in Congress before we even get to the Article 32 is bad for Pantano and the Armed Services. Its bad for the Corps and Army because Marines and Soldiers think they cannot do something that they would legally be able to do, i.e. shoot somebody they perceive as a threat. Its bad for Pantano because the Command and the trial counsel are only going to entrench themselves and present an airtight case, if they have one.
We'll see what shakes out at the 32.
Next thing you know, the congressman will be asking about steroid use.
I agree. Let the Marines handle this. Any officers on the panel/board whatever will want to see justice served.
Keep the press and the Congress at bay. They only mess things up.
"The stories I have read suggest that he did this in case the vehicle was booby trapped. Was this not legitimate action?"
It would appear that Pantano was standing only a few feet away from the vehicle as it was search. Had these guys been ready to detonate it, Pantano would have been fried with them.
Fine, you are right about this case not getting much MSM attention, however when you let the press into the game and you see what they and our traitorous Senators like Kennedy did with other issues in the war, I'm sorry but that lets the public in the game also. There was no way I was going to keep quite, and potentially let him hung out to dry as I'm sure it's been done before. If he really did commit a crime then I'm he will be convicted but given the pressure from around the globe and here within I want make sure that he is not made an example of. I hope you understand where I'm coming from and realize that this was getting more attention around the original post date. Also I do realize that congress has no direct influence in the matter but they can let it be known to keep it clean.
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