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To: JeffersonRepublic.com
...and I hope they can get some federal funding - rather then the government giving it to the auto industry.

I hope we can someday get the government out of promoting private industries and leave this to the market. Short of that... I hope as you hope.

3 posted on 03/07/2005 10:50:28 AM PST by pgyanke (Senate Republicans follow a policy of preemptive capitulation)
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To: pgyanke
I hope we can someday get the government out of promoting private industries and leave this to the market. Short of that... I hope as you hope.

One could argue that reducing or eliminating dependency on foreign oil is a national security matter, and therefore grants/subsidies on this point are justified.

52 posted on 03/07/2005 11:24:08 AM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: All
Some interesting H2 factoids from one of my favorite gurus, Don Lancaster: (From "Some Energy Fundamentals", October, 2002. See www.tinaja.com for more info.)
Volumetric energy density in watthours per liter:

Gasoline....9000 Wh/l
LNG.........7216 Wh/l
Propane.....6600 Wh/l
Ethanol.....6100 Wh/l
Liquid H2...2600 Wh/l
150 Bar H2...405 Wh/l

"..you do have to consider the contained weight of an energy delivery system. A gas tank adds relatively little weight to the gasoline it contains. But it is enormously unlikely you would be able to contain an equivalent 13 pounds of hydrogen in any 26 pound tank. Thus, the real-world contained energy density of hydrogen by weight is typically a lot worse than gasoline.

On the volumetric side, the hydrogen news is worse than all bad. STP hydrogen gas is laughingly pathetic. 2.7 watt hours per liter recoverable as electricity, or 3.3 watt hours per liter as heat. After compression and containment losses, ultra cold cryogenic liquid hydrogen has around one-fifth the energy density of gasoline.

Curiously, there is more hydrogen in one gallon of gasoline than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen. This happens because gasoline is denser by more than its hydrogen mole fraction.

At first glance, hydrogen would seem to have some things going for it as an alternate energy resource. Hydrogen burned in oxygen forms only water vapor. Which is a relatively benign pollutant. But when hydrogen is burned in air, more noxious oxides of nitrogen can also result.

In a typical situation, electrolysis takes two or more kilowatt hours of electricity worth ten cents each and converts them into one or fewer kilowatt hours of hydrogen worth less than a penny each. And that is before any fully burdened cost accounting, amortization, storage or processing. Thus... Electrolysis for bulk hydrogen energy is pretty much the same as 1:1 converting US dollars into Mexican Pesos.

At its very best, electrolysis introduces a staggering loss of exergy that dramatically reduces the quantity and value of transformed kilowatt hours of energy. Electrolysis is thus wildly unsuitable when driven from high value electrical sources such as retail grid electricity or any small scale photovoltaics."

189 posted on 03/07/2005 11:08:05 PM PST by Outland (Global warming: The hottest scam on the planet.)
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