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To: bondserv
I feel like we are both talking English, but not communicating. I am learning plenty about Christian doctrine, but nothing about its moral basis.

Before Adam ate of the tree he had no knowledge of good and evil. How then could it be evil of him to eat the tree?

Adam disobeyed a direct commandment of his Creator.

So what? At the point when he disobeyed that commandment he was an innocent, and therefore incapable of sin. By definition he could not understand that to obey God is good and that to disobey God is evil because he had no knowledge of these concepts. I don't feel any closer to understanding the answer to this quandary than when we began.

Why do we require a pardon for behavior we cannot avoid?

[Snip exposition of Christian doctrine that explains why we sin].

Your answer that I have snipped is the answer to a different question. You have answered the question, "why is it inescapably in our nature to sin?", which is in itself an interesting question but not the one I asked.

I will ask the question again, at slightly more length, to make my quandary clearer:

We can no more avoid sin than we can avoid breathing or gravity. Christianity is quite clear that sin is an unavoidable part of the post-Adam human condition. Why then do we require a pardon for sin, when to sin is unavoidably in our nature? We are as we are and we can be no other, however hard we try. To make us beg pardon for behaving according to our nature is immoral. We might as well be made to beg pardon for being subject to gravity.

How is denial of these things an outcome of His love for us?

Considering the cold deadly universe we live in, recognizing how God sustains our world is wisdom.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

I don't understand how denial of paradise (and of course many Christians enthusiastically believe something much darker happens to non-believers) to a section of humanity (the overwhelming majority 95%+ of those who have ever lived, if I understand your doctrine correctly) is an outcome of His love for us. To you your answers may address this question, but to me they come across as non sequiturs.

237 posted on 02/19/2005 2:05:17 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Thatcherite
I am enjoying our conversation. You pose some excellent questions, which I am trying my best to answer with intellectual honesty intact. Before Adam ate of the tree he had no knowledge of good and evil. How then could it be evil of him to eat the tree?

I can only say that Adam was clear about who His Creator was, because God created one of each kind of animal before Adam, for him to name. Adam was aware that he didn't possess the same Creative power, so he was well aware of the authority with which God spoke regarding the tree.

By commanding him not to eat the fruit of that one tree in the entire garden, God had set only one limit on Adam's freedom. Satan capitalized on this. Remember, Adam was not deceived, he willfully disobeyed his Creator.

Why do we require a pardon for behavior we cannot avoid?

We are guilty by association. It was not the original design for Adam to have passed on sin to all his forebears. He was corrupted, or tainted by his sin. This corruption is part of our makeup now. Not by God's desire, but by the result of having disobeyed God.

Human beings are very proud, and do not want to relinquish an once of their personal power. However, after accepting Christ as savior, we are made aware of our corrupt nature mostly through the revelation of our overwhelming pride (God's been hammering on mine for 15 years). Submitting to the will of God becomes a personal commitment that reaps blessings in character development that the world cannot offer. Maybe more importantly, there is a sense that you are humbly aligned with the purposes of the Creator of the universe in a completely personal way (as opposed to a cultic group way).

If you meet a person that is committed to following Christ -- there are many who say they are but one look will tell you different -- you will know a person who has a peace about them that is unnatural. The world system of achievement does not have the draw that it has on other non-followers. You will see a sincere concern for the wellbeing of other people that supersedes their own wellbeing. The captured female missionaries in Afghanistan so impressed their Taliban captors, that they withheld their treacheries on them. These woman exhibited a true love for the Afghani people, separate from political manipulations, that it protected them from harm.

How is denial of these things an outcome of His love for us?

I would try to clarify my meaning here. The Bible presents the idea that all men can intelligently see enough of the world and universe around them, that there is no denying it was Created, based on the personal attempts of their own to create and sustain something. A house, a bridge, a car, a field... The Bible teaches that God sustains our universe with His power, of which we have ample evidence.

238 posted on 02/19/2005 11:12:29 AM PST by bondserv (Sincerity with God is the most powerful instigator for change! † [Check out my profile page])
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