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Spotting Evolution on the Wing
Howard Hughes Medical Institute ^ | 04 February 2005 | Staff

Posted on 02/09/2005 7:35:49 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: mike182d
A Creationist need not answer this rediculous question as it is not relevant to the Intelligent Design argument.

You're right. The question really was off-topic, and perhaps a rhetorical one. But there were some misconceptions I was just driven to respond to.... :-)

21 posted on 02/09/2005 9:42:43 AM PST by Theo
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To: Theo

Well, I always assumed he stocked it for his family, and as for meat, well, if you're surrounded by water, fish would probably be the choice. You could then feed that to the carnivorous animals. Feeding the herbivores seems to be a problem to me. You would need a LOT of grains/greens/etc that they eat to keep them alive (how long was it again? 40 days & nights?). I think the text itself said something about God putting them at ease, so there'd be no "hunger accidents" (say, a lion eating a horse or a cow, which would be a problem for species repopulation...).

Excrement would be a huge worry, I think. Also, the close proximity of animals that can catch diseases from other species (I think some avian flus can infect swine, and people) raises doubts. Fresh water just came to mind, too. I guess he could catch rainwater on a clean linen sheet of sorts, and drain it into a clay vessel.


22 posted on 02/09/2005 9:56:38 AM PST by mbennett203 ("Bulrog, a tough brute warrior who has dedicated his life to ridding the world of hippies.")
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To: Thatcherite

You are correct, and it drives them nuts.


23 posted on 02/09/2005 9:57:15 AM PST by MonroeDNA (US OUT of the UN!)
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To: Thatcherite

God invented evolution.

Men invented organized religeon.


24 posted on 02/09/2005 9:58:57 AM PST by MonroeDNA (US OUT of the UN!)
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To: mike182d
Is this micro- or macro-evolution? Given this analogy, it seems the former is the case.

What's the difference? What mechanism prevents "micro" from shading into "macro?"

25 posted on 02/09/2005 10:06:15 AM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: mike182d

It's micro.


26 posted on 02/09/2005 10:13:42 AM PST by RobRoy (They're trying to find themselves an audience. Their deductions need applause - Peter Gabriel)
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To: mbennett203; mike182d

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html


27 posted on 02/09/2005 10:13:53 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: orionblamblam

>>Actaully, inefficient evolution. Left in place all sorts of stuff not strictly needed. However, when things change, having that collection of garbage rattling aroudn int he DNA allows for useful changes.<<

So, the stuff has a purpose after all? Adaptability, say?

That is what micro-evolution is all about.


28 posted on 02/09/2005 10:17:45 AM PST by RobRoy (They're trying to find themselves an audience. Their deductions need applause - Peter Gabriel)
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To: Step_Into_the_Void

>>They just can't live with the fact that all life came from old pond mud somewhere. Too scary and they can't use their myths to make up rules for everyone anymore. Weak minds, moral prudes in denial.<<

"Old pond mud somewhere?" Who is dealing in myths here? 8^>


29 posted on 02/09/2005 10:19:16 AM PST by RobRoy (They're trying to find themselves an audience. Their deductions need applause - Peter Gabriel)
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To: Theo
I was a bit off topic. But, all those different types of bugs and wings made me think of that old ark story and the pictures I saw as a child. It seemed plausible -when I was a child- because of the ark picture my parents hung in my room. That is the only reason I brought it up.

It would not be all that difficult to include the less than 8,000 "kinds" of air-breathing animals

Right. But there are millions of different creatures, not just a few thousand. Besides, ever see a dinosaur, last I checked, they were quite large.

Its like my zoology professor said, 'that flood fable was written before they knew about dinosaurs and how big they were and before they knew there was not enough water to cover mountains'.

30 posted on 02/09/2005 10:24:11 AM PST by Step_Into_the_Void (Fiscal conservative - don't take my money - you didn't work for it - I did.)
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To: RobRoy

> So, the stuff has a purpose after all?

Not necessarily. Sometimes it's simply due to replication error.


31 posted on 02/09/2005 10:24:25 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Theo

> a water canopy encircling the earth high in the atmosphere .... blocked harmful solar rays

Indeed. None of that pesky "light" getting through. Noah obviously built the ark in the dark.

> The ancestors of penguins, then, may have lived anywhere.

Alongside the lions and dodos, presumably. Because we've all seen those nature films showing just how vicious an angered penguin can be when trapped by hyenas or lions or tasmanian devils, we can rest assured that such critters would have had *no* trouble dealing with a different set of threats than what they have today.

> I'd be interested in seeing fossil evidence of where penguin ancestors lived....

http://www.cadicush.org.ar/olivero/amn.htm

And I'd be interested in seeing just how just about all the marsupials managed to get to Australia, without stops elesewhere. And how the flightless Kiwi bird managed to cross Asia and the Pacific to get to New Zealand. And how the flightless dodo got to it's little island.


32 posted on 02/09/2005 10:35:04 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Theo
Creationists have explained that the Bible speaks of various "kinds" of creatures (perhaps 8,000 "kinds") that diversified and devolved into the variety of "species" now present.

Which species did duck-billed platypuses devolved from?
And how did they get all the way from Australia to the middle east and back again?
33 posted on 02/09/2005 10:37:37 AM PST by newcats
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To: orionblamblam
>>Not necessarily. Sometimes it's simply due to replication error.<<

Let me clarify: So, the stuff may have a purpose after all? After all, with the exception of the ID claim about the origin of life itself, none of this is abolute beyond what we witness in the wild and in the lab. 8^>

34 posted on 02/09/2005 10:37:49 AM PST by RobRoy (They're trying to find themselves an audience. Their deductions need applause - Peter Gabriel)
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To: RobRoy

> So, the stuff may have a purpose after all?

To a certain limit of the definition of "purpose," sure. Just as a rock *may* have a purpose, if a need is found for it at some point.


35 posted on 02/09/2005 11:10:13 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Step_Into_the_Void
Indeed, no-one who believes the Noah's ark myth has checked with a zoo-keeper. How many keepers do you think 8,000 "kinds" would require? (with all the input of services that a modern zoo has, piped fresh water, sewerage carried away, electric light, warmth, refrigeration, veterinary services.....)
36 posted on 02/09/2005 11:12:21 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: orionblamblam
And I'd be interested in seeing just how just about all the marsupials managed to get to Australia, without stops elesewhere. And how the flightless Kiwi bird managed to cross Asia and the Pacific to get to New Zealand. And how the flightless dodo got to it's little island.

And indeed, I'd be further interested in the non-plate-tectonics non-evolutionary explanation of why marsupial fossils are found in antarctica as well as australasia (but nowhere else). Hint to the creationists: ToE in combination with plate-tectonics predicted marsupial fossils would be found on Antarctica, and they were. "Creation Science" has a very poor (non-existent) record of that kind of startling succesful prediction.

37 posted on 02/09/2005 11:16:35 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Thatcherite

Indeed, it's that very type of extremely counter-intuitive prediction that really lends credence to a theory. After all, before the theories of evolution and plate techtonics, who would have expected to find fossils of animals on an icy continent like Antarctica? Other examples of this abound. My personal favorite is a model of diffraction of light proposed by Fresnel. His model predicted that if coherent light were shined on a very small circular obstacle, that the diffraction pattern thus produced would result in a bright spot right in the middle of the shadow of the disk. Contemporaries laughed at his model. That is until the experiment was performed and the bright spot appeared right where it was predicted.


38 posted on 02/09/2005 11:41:55 AM PST by stremba
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To: orionblamblam
And I'd be interested in seeing just how just about all the marsupials managed to get to Australia, without stops elesewhere. And how the flightless Kiwi bird managed to cross Asia and the Pacific to get to New Zealand. And how the flightless dodo got to it's little island.

Ah, good point! Not only did they have to walk & swim all the way to the other continents (eating the bloated carcasses of the drowned animals along the way, IIRC), not one of them ate a bad meal or dropped dead from exhaustion. And needless to say, they all had to get to their far continents within one generation. So, for example, all the small Australian marsupials had to have reached Australia within a couple years.

Now, a creationist could counter that we're only talking two individuals from each kind, plus their children & maybe grandchildren, making the trek across the Earth, so we shouldn't expect to find the fossils of those who died along the way. Problem is, we're talking representatives of 8,000 kinds making the trek. So it would still be hundreds of thousands of individuals in all. You'd think there'd be some evidence of a mass radiation outwards from Mt. Ararat at a specific point in time.

39 posted on 02/09/2005 12:14:32 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Professional NT Services by Miller)
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To: Thatcherite
"Creation Science" has a very poor (non-existent) record of that kind of startling succesful prediction.

I predict that if a creationist con-man (but I repeat myself!) writes yet another creationist book, it will be purchased by a large number of idiots.

40 posted on 02/09/2005 1:41:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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