Posted on 01/20/2005 3:22:49 PM PST by fishtank
Let's go!
This needs to be on the table.
Would at least one Christian minister who has the President's ear ---- give him an earful????
Great reply, Montag.
Rights and liberty are found in the Bible, not in the Koran.
Name me one Islamic country with freedom of religion (i.e. an absence of dhimmitude).
"That isn't the issue, fishtank. The issue was the POTUS including Muslims as people of faith and your and Savage's problem with him doing so. It may not be your faith or my faith, but they are people of faith.
We have Freedom of Religion in this country, whether you like it or not. I know many people of many faiths, including Muslims, who are very good people."
"Muslims as people of faith"
(1) The Koran had NO input in the founding of America. The Koran is hostile to American liberty.
"We have Freedom of Religion in this country"
(2) Yes, and I want to keep it that way. If misguided people want the Koran to shape our government, then we will lose our religious freedoms.
"including Muslims, who are very good people"
(3) I am convinced that some Muslims can be good people, not because of the Koran, but in spite of it. Their consciences have told them to reject the Koran's evil messages, while they themselves continue to hold a sentimental attachment to aspects of Islam.
You seem to be having a disconnect with past statements I've made, so I hope the misunderstandings do not persist.
If you persist in your belief that all Muslims are jihadists, I believe we are done with this discussion. As has been stated by me and many others on this silly thread, there as many variations of the interpretation of Islam as there are of the Bible.
For instance, I am Roman Catholic. I have had some of the Baptists on this forum declare that we worship statues and have secret Zionists Overlords. I have had the Radical Traditionalist RC's accuse me of being a hypocrit because I practice birth-control.
There are zealots of all stripes. Sometimes it is useful to hold up a mirror.
"If you persist in your belief that all Muslims are jihadists, I believe we are done with this discussion."
This is a perfect example of your misunderstanding.
I NEVER SAID THAT.
Okay, I stand corrected. I still do not understand why you have such an issue with the President entreating moderate Muslims to be Americans first.
I included it, and it is on my home page - go look at it!
Have a good & Godly day!
If they weren't busy having a tantrum over Bush mentioning the Koran no doubt this would be next on their agenda.
Actually intolerant zealots who throw tantrums anytime a President says something nice about a religion other than Christianity, are hostile to American liberty and the concept of freedom of religion.
As a matter of fact, yes I have benefitted even from the reading of the Satanic Bible. It was while reading it that a full understanding of the difference between religions based in selfinterest, and religions based in self sacrifice. It gave me an even better understanding and admiration of Christianity. Only a fool can read any book, and find NOTHING to benefit from it.
Nope. I have talked to my Pastor who has okayed it. One more pregnancy and I will die, literally.
And look at the Iraqi ex-pats travelling many miles within the U.S. in order to vote. On FN Sunday, the interviews with some of the older Iraqis were especially touching - they never thought they would be able to do this in their lifetime.
I also suspect that while Saddam was in power, any ex-pat speaking out publicly against him was also in very real danger of being hunted down by his henchmen. I can't say I blame their reluctance to speak out publicly after being subject to that kind of murderous tyranny for so long.
As a matter of fact, yes I have benefitted even from the reading of the Satanic Bible. It was while reading it that a full understanding of the difference between religions based in selfinterest, and religions based in self sacrifice. It gave me an even better understanding and admiration of Christianity. Only a fool can read any book, and find NOTHING to benefit from it.>>>
Only a fool needs to read The Satanic Bible in order to deepen one's faith in Christinity.
Sliding down a slippery slope sadly.
Wow! You have some priest who can suspend the laws of God and bless an intrinsic evil. Mine is the plain old-fashioned (non-divine) kind.
We talked with our Bishop. All figured it was better for me to be alive to raise my children, than drop dead trying to carry another.
It must be really cool to divine the mind of God as you and your pastor can.
You Rad-Trads really are a piece of work. You're about six degrees away from being Mullahs.
From the President's speech:
"In America's ideal of freedom, the public interest depends on private character - on integrity, and tolerance toward others, and the rule of conscience in our own lives. Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self. That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran, and the varied faiths of our people. Americans move forward in every generation by reaffirming all that is good and true that came before - ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/01/20050120-1.html
....... I wish I could have an hour with the President to really know what he meant here. I think the statement he made is inaccurate about the Koran.
"sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran"
The phrase "sustained in our national life" is where most of us here are in disagreement with him.
A rhetorical question: If one were to be in a court of law attempting to settle a matter dealing with divorce, child custody, etc, what kind of court would one prefer to have the issue settled? An American court influenced by the teachings of Jesus Christ or in an Islamic court under the Sharia law of the Koran?
Before you give your answer, recall that it was Jesus Christ in his life on earth who:
(1) Refused to condone the stoning of a woman caught in adultery.
(2) Taught his disciples the parable of the "wheat and the weeds". Remember that the farm laborers wanted to pull up the weeds before the harvest on their own. The landowner said, no, we will wait until after the harvest and then do the separation of the good from the bad. The point of that story was to allow God to exercise the judgment, to give God the priority, not men. (I am not discounting the necessity of law and order, here, though.)
(3) It was Jesus who separated civil (governmental) issues from spiritual issues when He taught to "render unto God what is God's, and to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". This teaching came about in the context of paying taxes to an evil king - to Caesar. Jesus divided the two kingdoms.
(4) It was Jesus who said that "My kingdom is not of this world", thus making clear the idea that building an earthly kingdom is vanity.
Going back to my question about law courts in America: the teachings of Jesus Christ have formed our justice system, and the teachings of the Koran have not.
I do NOT want the Koran influencing our legal system, do you? I do NOT want the Koran being used as an inspiration for writing new laws, do you?
On the other hand, why do so many Muslims want to live in America? - Because there is no religious freedom in many Muslim countries. By the way, I am not a person who believes that Christianity should be the official religion of America. I abhor the idea of a state religion - I want to be able to choose my own church.
I also want Muslims to be able to choose their own mosque. Ironically, in a Koranic country, that is not possible. Only in a country influenced by the teachings of Jesus Christ is that possible. THIS is the great irony, and this is the point I have not had time to make til now.
Thanks.
Thanks, fish, for all your efforts on this.
It is a very bad day when the Koran is mentioned in a President's inaugural speech. Has this ever happened before? I think not.
By doing so, it has given equal footing to the basic beliefs of the Koran, which we all know to be very dangerous beliefs and include the killing of infidels.
Anyone who thinks there is no harm done by including the Koran in the President's speech is only deceiving himself.
I voted for President Bush and was thrilled that he was there instead of Kerry. But I was greatly disappointed and even shocked at his mentioning the Koran in his speech.
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