a hearty well done to all!!! What's the Frequency Kenneth??? 47 !!!
Posted on 09/08/2004 7:39:18 PM EDT by Howlin
Have at him!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210516/posts
He says that he recommnended a lot of people during that time.
There were 100's of names of people wanting to get into the ANG or the NG, he says. (Lie)
Barnes equates going into the National Guard with running away to Canada to escape the draft. I'm done!
Bush trained in Georgia!
1970, Bush was a celebrity; press release issued in Texas said he was the son of 41.
"How Bush can get out of doing his drill from "now" through November."
CBS has found some "new papers."
CBS "expert" doesnt' see anything "discordanant" in the way things were done back then.
Don't you like the way all these "new papers" come from a dead man?
They are not in the style that we used when I came in to the USAF. They looked like the style and format we started using about 12 years ago (1992). Our signature blocks were left justified, now they are rigth of center...like the ones they just showed.
Can we get a copy of those memos?
They looked ODD, didn't they?
Here is their web site, but I don't see it:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml
The documents CBS used are FRAUDS!!!!!!!!
Details........please. Site for legal forms of documents?
No I didn't hear anything new at all. But I didn't really get a good look at those documents Dan Blather presented (was distracted as usual).
What were they supposed to be?
Barnes is a fraud. Greg Knap on KLIF pointed that out today...he also interviewed Will Campenni who flew with Bush.
I am doing a write up of that and will post soon.
AS FAR AS BARNES....
Earlier today...Hannity said that Barnes swore under oath in 1999 that he did not help Bush get into the Guard.
ALSO...It seems that in the past...Barnes has claimed that he helped Bush get into the Guard when he was LT Gov.
The radio made the point that Bush went into the Guard in 68......Barnes was not Lt. Gov until 1969.
(digging up confirmation on that)
The liberal college prof that they showed...has actually done work with the DNC and is friends with Hill Clinton.
I thought it desperate that 60 minutes would say...they had an expert look at the supposed documents to see if a guy really wrote them. THEY WERE TYPED DOCUMENTS.
They guys who they said had the documents...has come out in the past and admitted they were not real. He is dead not...so Rather thought...why not try it again.
What documents are you referring to?
And did folks use CYA back then?
I wasn't around back then, but I always thought that was a somewhat new thing.
Did they go into other people's files too?
And isn't it funny, everybody's dead. Maybe that makes sense. It was a long time ago, but everybody but Barnes is dead.
Don't you think, if Barnes was making these allegations against Kerry, that we would have heard all about Barnes long running problem with following the law. Oh, Heavens, Barnes would have had to pull a Boorda by now.
I really think CBS News should strap a crotch camp with Dan when he is interviewing people to screw Bush. I suspect Dan had a Hell of a boner during this interview. It almost look like he reached completion during this interview. It was nauseating.
CBS) Former Texas House Speaker and Lt. Governor Ben Barnes tells Correspondent Dan Rather that he regrets what he calls the "life or death" decision he made to help President Bush get into the Texas Air National Guard.
Rather's report, which will include new information about Bush's military service, will be broadcast on 60 Minutes, tonight at 8 p.m. ET/PT.
That was the most desperate piece of "journalism" I've seen in a while.
They only showed the documents; held them up to the camera; I don't see them on the web site.
Until they post them for all of us to look at, I can only assume they are frauds.
Didn't watch the show. What are these "new memos" that CBS has found?
We have a corrupt Democrat, currently a big time Kerry supporter, claiming to be regretful for being a politician giving out political favors to his supporters 36 years ago. Except the Bushes were not Democrats then or now...
Then... we produce some never before seen documents that we do not name the source for and which have not been publicly scrutinized and link the two loosely into an indictment that is implied but not stated to the effect that all this was a conspiracy of some sort to keep the "privileged" son out of Vietnam.
The issue that is raised here that needs to be answered is where did these documents come from and where have they been and who can testify to their authenticity? I have it! NOW we know what Sandy Berger was stealing from the national archives!
I'll say. How convenient that they only made partial quotations of the whole memos. Who knows how out of context they were.
I think there are two factors which will minimize the impact on Bush:
1) Bush has been open about discussing his service, especially in recent interviews. Kerry has yet to take questions about the Swifty charges (or anything else, for that matter!). Dubya even went so far as to say Kerry's service was more admirable than his own, BUT that he was proud of his service.
2) Bush himself requested all the files released (not that the media is reporting that little fact). Kerry hasn't.
BC04 has a strategy on this...we'll see as it plays out.
How is it a big deal? There's nothing in them that hasn't already been known.
They looked odd, didn't they?
Yes--these are memos that are "just found", and not part of the Guard record. They are apparently memos that Bush's CO kept....
Why the heck would a CO write these about a Guardsman? That is the question, and it won't be spun well.
That's what I keep asking. The year in question 50 units were required; GWB completed 56. What's the problem?
Agree... Where did they come from? Who do they belong to? Why were they made available at this time? Is this all the documents held by whoever owns them? Are there others that might be exculpatory to the allegations made tonight? This is a campaign advertisement disguised as a "news" program...
Can some of you guys in the later time zones WATCH this interview and get a GOOD LOOK at those docuemtns.....how they were typed, where the signature was.....that kind of thing?
A screen grab would be great!
Who else does screen captures?
Some "new" letters from Bush's file ........supposedly.
They might be memos written by his CO, but they contain nothing in them that hasn't already been found in his records. They can spin it all they want, and I hope they waste alot of money doing it. I doubt it will get any traction. The bottom line is Bush signed Form 180 to have all his records released. If he felt there was anything detrimental in them, he wouldn't have signed the form. On the other hand, Kerry refuses to sign form 180. What does that tell you?
Wouldn't that be the discussion about Bush working on the campaign in Alabama and trying to figure out a way he could do it?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml
...The first memo is a direct order to take "an annual physical examination" – a requirement for all pilots
...Another memo refers to a phone call from the lieutenant in which he and his commander "discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November." And that due to other commitments "he may not have time."...
...Killian's memo, titled 'CYA' reads he is being pressured by higher-ups to give the young pilot a favorable yearly evaluation; to, in effect, sugarcoat his review. He refuses, saying, "I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job." ...
...More difficult to brush off are two official memos that seem to contradict previous White House statements.
One "orders" the president to report for a physical. The White House has said the physical was "not necessary" because the president stopped flying.
And where the White House says the president's flying status was revoked simply for missing that physical, the memo points to both the missed physical and "failure to perform to (USAF/TexANG) standards...
What were they supposed to be?
Some new memos/letters that were "just found", and not part of Bush's Guard records, I believe.
Theirin lies the problem with your premise.
Yeah, that was regarding the campaign in Alabama he wanted to work on.
Hey Howlin .. I just heard on the Radio .. Dan Rathernot mentioning a document that was just found in some officers file about President Bush
What the heck is that about?
I suggest that trying to prop up credibility about docs that were hidden away by a CO, and not made part of the official record, is more than ludicrous.
Isn't Killian dead? How did CBS authenticate documents supposedly authored by a dead man and weren't a part of the official file?
Memos for Records that Bush's Squadron Commander wrote...recently "discovered".
I'd really like to see those documents myself.
That depends--sometimes the public is more willing to believe contemporaneous notes than offical documents.
We are a nation of tinfoilers and conspiracy theorists.
I don't know if these documents are genuine, but until someone credible debunks them, I don't see major media doubting them.
He is dead......and they didn't explain that.
Here is the quote:
What has never surfaced before, reports CBS News Anchor Dan Rather, are four documents from the personal files of Col. Jerry Killian, Mr. Bush's squadron commander. They could help answer lingering questions on whether Lt. Bush received special consideration during his military service.
I'm sure Bush wasn't the only Guardsman that Killian had memos on in his own personal file. The only ones they were interested in though were the ones on Bush.
Of course you meant the ones DETRIMENTAL to Bush, right?
What the heck is going on...?
Please post it and we can deconstruct it.
Rather tried to make a "blockbuster" out of a 15 minute segment on "60 mins", by exposing some papers on President Bush's National Guard service, which where "previously NEVER SEEN". It's CBS's version of a Kitty Kelly hit.
My take is that it's going to be difficult to question a dead man as to what he meant by the memos or even if they were written contemporaneously.
On the other hand, I'd say that CBS released the most damaging quotes in the most ominous context possible. So let's look at them:
...The first memo is a direct order to take "an annual physical examination" – a requirement for all pilots
Big deal. He was "ordered" to take a physical. This could have meant ordered in "Do this or else" or it could have been ordered as in "I'm ordering you show up for your quarterly dental cleaning". I'm sure the whole memo won't look like an absolute order.
...Another memo refers to a phone call from the lieutenant in which he and his commander "discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November." And that due to other commitments "he may not have time."...
Again, what's the big deal? Bush calls him analyzing his options on alternate service during a period he is busy at work. That happens all the time in the reserves. Reservists do have full time jobs. And if there were something more damaging about this conversation, it would have been mentioned
...Killian's memo, titled 'CYA' reads he is being pressured by higher-ups to give the young pilot a favorable yearly evaluation; to, in effect, sugarcoat his review. He refuses, saying, "I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job." ...
Here he says he got pressure from above but refused to comply. It doesn't say that he got pressure from Bush. It also doesn't define what "pressure" means. Perhaps some of the higher ups who knew Bush's dad was a politician made some requests on Bush's behalf without Bush's knowledge. Even so, the memo says that he refused to bow to the pressure, and there is nothing negative in Bush's actual records, so you got to go with the official record here.
...More difficult to brush off are two official memos that seem to contradict previous White House statements.
One "orders" the president to report for a physical. The White House has said the physical was "not necessary" because the president stopped flying.
So he was ordered to get a physical if he intended to keep flying, but he knew he would not be flying again so he didn't get it. Perhaps his commander ordered him to get the physical without knowing what Bush's long range plans were. Again, I find it difficult to believe that a commander "ordered" him to something that was routinely scheduled anyway
And where the White House says the president's flying status was revoked simply for missing that physical, the memo points to both the missed physical and "failure to perform to (USAF/TexANG) standards...
I'd have to have details defining what "failure to perform to (ASAF/TexANG) standards means. Otherwise this is just hot air. This is the only thing that could be anything, but if it was already part of Bush's official record, I'm sure it's been looked over. If it was part of this guys personal files, how could it have been "official".
So at best they have one memo that may raise a small question with the Anybody But Bush hatemongers. For the rest of us, I can't see this as any big deal. Of course, the media is part of the ABB hatemongers, so they could whip it up nonstop until the election if they want. But ultimately, I can't imagine this will make any difference to the voters.
i didn't watch 60 minutes but you're exactly right about the signature blocks....goodness, i should know, i was a secretary for the DAF from 1969 to 1991 when i left the pentagon to work for the navy and the signature block was ALWAYS on the left hand margin....I HATE CBS!
The guy is no longer alive???
Papers just showed up after all these years??
Something doesn't smell right
Is CBS going to release them to the public?
Sent Brit my first ever e-mail with a copy of a FReeper analysis regarding the Bush AWOL smears. Will not see the program until later -- hope Brit handed their heads to them.
I'd like to see the whole Killian collection to see how many other memos he wrote on other Guardsmen, how many other orders for physicals he sent out and how many other suspensions from flying he ordered. I'm sure there's more than just Bush's in that file collection.
The quotes used by CBS were only partial, so we have no idea in what context they were used in the memos. They were probably edited by CBS to get the most effect for the point they wanted to present.
"It's not just the newly discovered memos causing trouble. There are new questions as to why, when he moved to Massachusetts to attend Harvard Business School, Mr. Bush did not sign up with a reserve unit there, as he promised in a letter when he left the Texas National Guard".
This was debunked by the White House today, citing Military records already in the hands of the media, proving that the President received legitimate early release to attend graduate school. The fact that the media had these records for sometime, and ignored them in their research, proves this is nothing but BULL$HIT!
It also proves that the rest of the story carries the same stench of LIES!
LLS
60 Minutes Tonight to Air 4th Anti-Bush Hit Job So Far This Year
I am not one who thinks they faked documents. However, I have seen the media time and again misrepresent and distort the contents of documents:
New Evidence Supports Bush Military Service (Mostly)
February 2004
excerpt:
The Boston Globe reported Feb. 12 that Bush’s suspension from flight duty while he was in Alabama “should have prompted an investigation by his commander” in Houston under Air Force regulations in effect at the time. The Globe also said “It is unclear whether Bush's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, ordered any inquiry, as required.” Killian is deceased.
~snip~
It never does when a rat is involved, and Rather is a rat by no other name. The first President Bush nailed him in an interview in 1988, and it has been pay back time ever since.(by the way it was a sight to behold)
Where did Dan say these memos were found?
They are NOT documents. They are supposedly "personal notes" of a CO. There very well may be bogus, just like your paranoia!
LLS
As I recall it, we (USAF) changed to match the rest of the DoD.
What has never surfaced before, reports CBS News Anchor Dan Rather, are four documents from the personal files of Col. Jerry Killian, Mr. Bush's squadron commander. They could help answer lingering questions on whether Lt. Bush received special consideration during his military service.
Why would Bush's files be in Killian's files??
How long ago did killian pass away?
How long ago did killian pass away?
HERE THEY ARE:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml
Scroll down on the left!!!!!!
Thanks .. this story still smells
What year did Killian pass away?
How can they attribute something that is unsigned?
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay19.pdf
Why are the two signatures different?
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf
Something smells here.
PING to link to transcript found at post #363.
I note in the second memo Killian has advised Bush of the due date for the physical and notes Bush says he'll take care of that in Alabama IF HE STAYS IN A FLIGHT STATUS.
The memo vindicates George Bush. Just the opposite of what that ass Rather said.
HUH? You're not going down the kooky "they fabricated documents" line are you?
The docs are real. But they are nothing new and nothing that paints Bush in a bad light.
Much to Dan's chagrin.
I find it hard to believe that someone initials can change so much in their handwriting within 3 months.
I'd like to compare the CBS write-up of memo #2 with the actual memo. Ready? Let's go!:
CBS:
Killian called Lt. Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "performed in an outstanding manner." That is part of the public record.
But 60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. Among them, a never-before-seen memorandum from May 1972, where Killian writes that Lt. Bush called him to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November."
Lt. Bush tells his commander "he is working on a campaign in Alabama…. and may not have time to take his physical." Killian adds that he thinks Lt. Bush has gone over his head, and is "talking to someone upstairs."
Col. Killian died in 1984. 60 Minutes consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.
~snip~
Now, the actual memo:
May 19, 1972
Memo to File
Subject: Discussion with Bush; 1st Lt. Bush
1. Phone call from Bush. Discussed options of how Bush can get out of coming to drill from now through November. I told him he could do ET for three months or transfer. Says he wants to transfer to Alabama to any unit he can get in to. Says that he is working on another campaign for his dad.
2. Physical. We talked about him getting his flight physical situation fixed before his date. Says that he will do that in Alabama if he stays in a flight status. He has this campaign to do and other things that will follow and may not have the time. I advised him of our investment in him and his commitment. He's been working with staff to come up with options and identified a unit that may accept him. I told him I had to have written acceptance before he would be transferred, but I think he's talking to someone upstairs.
END OF MEMO
Now, I think any fair-minded person can see the memo is not as CBS portrayed it.
I'm sorry for being so harsh in my tone before. I see CBS says they were told these memos came from Killian. I tend to believe it but WHY is CBS keeping it secret who did provide the documents to them?
(rhetorical question)
I still don't think they were forged but with the chain of custody in question it is a fair question and even CBS employed a handwriting expert.
Ummm the memo is typed .. why would they need a handwriting analyst ??
I think you are absolutely correct.
Plus, are there any OTHER memos that Killian wrote concerning Bush that didn't fit CBS' agenda?
Killian's initials and/or signature appear on most of the four memos. The analyst also was called upon to gauge the authenticity by presumably looking at style, stationary, etc.
CBS should have disclosed who gave them the documents and represented them.
I agree with Howlin that there are probably other memos on Bush as well as others but they weren't spinnable as negative (The only one in this group that looks hinky is memo 4 and that isn't about Bush directly so BD).
The memo's show that Killian was a little peeved at Lt. Bush after trying to get him more interested in performing AF duties at a time when young Bush had other interests. I too have written CYA memo's on subordinates and put them in the drawer. That doesn't mean their work wasn't acceptable or that they were slackers. When you're pissed at a worker under your supervision, you document it, but in this case it's not continual and other Killian reports showed a different picture. I think that if this is all they can come up with, it's nothing to worry about, but something to continue to be pissed off at.
To clarify my previous comment: Memo 4 does indeed mention Bush directly. What I meant was Killian writes of "pressure" about Bush, but not *from* Bush.
This memo cries out for the author to clarify but alas, he's dead. IMO CBS should not present it. It seems laughable to have to point out the obvious: Especially in light of their ignoring of credible and documented allegations about Kerry from living and breathing people that were with him in Vietnam or suffered at his hands (POWS in prisons).
Well, CBS is disgusting. No use in writing another memo about that!
I liked the part of the one memo that said "He seems to talking to someone upstairs." Stephanopoulus took this as proof he was applying pressure. I took it to mean he was praying about it.
At 11:10: 56 PM EDT, Pikamax posted:
Documents Suggest Special Treatment for Bush in Guard [post 47]
NYTIMES ^ | 09/09/04 | KATHARINE Q. SEELYE and RALPH BLUMENTHAL
Posted on 09/08/2004 11:10:56 PM EDT by Pikamax
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210662/posts
How convenient.
Amazing how the can so cavalierly spew, after the record has been examined and found OK. Scummy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml
There are the documents; now you see if you think they say what the NYT says they say.
And what does that mean?
It means he , if he actually wrote them, didn't see fit to send the memos to anyone else. So why write them in the first place?
I think they were his private papers?
So why write them? If he was REALLY trying to CYA then he would have sent his concerns up the chain otherwise he would be in deep Sh%T if he had to explain later why he didn't let someone else know about a supposed violation of a direct order. Nope I don't believe these are legit documents since CBS will not say who they got them from so the originals can be examined.
Howlin, every single one of these memos to file is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman.
In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing, and typewriters used monospaced fonts.
The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers. They were not widespread until the mid to late 90's. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn't used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80's used monospaced fonts.
I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old.
This should be pursued aggressively.
You're absolutely correct. I just looked at the files, and they don't pass the smell test. Most typewritten items from that era would have been in Courier font. And why would these items be copies, anyway, if these memos were for the guy's own personal file? They wouldn't have that run through the copy machine a zillion times aura to them in that case.
This is going to be hilarious, because every major news organization is running with this bogus story like it's a new toy on Christmas morning.
Exactly. It seems like that if CBS were concerned about journalistic integrity, instead of smearing Bush, they would have checked out the authenticity of these documents, something you figured out in a quick perusal of them.
Exactly. It seems like that if CBS were concerned about journalistic integrity, instead of smearing Bush, they would have checked out the authenticity of these documents, something you figured out in a quick perusal of them.
Further evidence of forgery is given here:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php
How do we get this to CBS?
Maybe it should go to FoxNews instead. Although actually, I'll bet that ABC and NBC wouldn't mind slamming CBS over a forgery, even if they are partisan.
Do you know how hard it is to center text on a typewriter? Look at the headings of the memos. Perfect.
At 12:16:02 AM EDT, I put this thread up
THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating
www.freerepublic.com | September 9, 2004
Posted on 09/09/2004 12:16:02 AM EDT by Howlin
These are the NEW documents "discovered" by CBS with conjunction with their Ben Barnes expose/confessional tonight regarding George Bush's National Guard service.
They've gotten some interesting comments on the Live Thread, so I thought I'd give them their own thread so you people out there with the knowledge can dissect them for their accuracy/truth/existence.
And the rest, as they say, is blog history!
Thx for the compilation. 'Pod.
Great idea! Thanks. Bookmarking for reference.
Bookmarked. Thank you.
Thank you.
Great work, Howlin, and thank you for your effort on this most important set of events.
It's an honor to share these boards with you, Howlin. Fantastic job you've done here!
You know what? I'm proud to be a FReeper!
And I'm especially proud of the company we keep here. God Bless you all!
Outstanding job. Bookmarked!
EXCELLENT!!!
Thank you for putting this together ...
Hint to the MSM if you're lurking .. it wasn't just the fonts that tipped Freepers off that they were fake
There sure were alot of people on that thread contributing.
Too bad the MSM didn't take the time to research all that happened. Once again, they glossed over everything and everyone except that which they were looking for...to nail Buckhead.
You guys are awesome. Everyone here is awesome. Proud to hang out here with such a group of talented, intelligent people (who also have a sense of humor!)
It's been quite a week...and as I said before, I got nothing done around here!
We're in our pajamas all the time but we never sleep!
massive "bookmark this thread" ping
You have done us proud.
You have ALL done us proud.
Thank you.
a hearty well done to all!!! What's the Frequency Kenneth??? 47 !!!
Not bad for a chat room.
PS....I'm in my jammies.
Thanks for posting this, Sweetie!
Good Job pulling all reference material together.
Excellent work, Howlin. Bookmarked. I am proud to be a Freeper.
Wow! That was a lot of work!
Congressman Billybob
Latest column, "The Manifesto of Pukin Dog"
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