Posted on 08/02/2004 11:16:09 PM PDT by JohnHuang2
WASHINGTON – Is it real or is it an election year scheme to win votes?
That's the question many in this town are asking about House Speaker Dennis Hastert's proposal to eliminate the income tax and abolish the Internal Revenue Service in a second Bush administration.
In his upcoming book, "Speaker: Lessons from Forty Years in Coaching and Politics," Hastert says the bold move – sure to be immensely popular with voters – will be the centerpiece of President Bush's domestic agenda in a second term.
Hastert, for his part, says he will push for replacing the nation's current tax system with a national sales tax or a value added tax.
"People ask me if I'm really calling for the elimination of the IRS, and I say I think that's a great thing to do for future generations of Americans," he writes in "Speaker," set for release tomorrow.
House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, offered a preview of the House GOP leadership's post-election tax agenda in a March speech in which he said the Republicans are determined to repeal the federal income tax.
Long an advocate of a national sales tax, a confident DeLay told a conference of tax lobbyists that House Republicans will have hearings and push the issue in 2005 and 2006.
He said that replacing the income tax, payroll and other related federal taxes would provide more money for people to use, and he endorsed a proposal from Rep. John Linder, R-Ga., for a national sales tax.
Yet, even as Republican leaders in the GOP-led House, Senate and Bush White House have praised the concept of tax simplification over the last 3 1/2 years, the U.S. tax code has been expanded by over 10,000 pages as the Bush tax cuts and other changes – part of a total of 227 changes to the code – were implemented.
"Pushing reform legislation will be difficult," admits Hastert. "Change of any sort seldom comes easy. But these changes are critical to our economic vitality and our economic security abroad."
Americans for Fair Taxation has been pushing the plan for years. Recently, the group has been pushing H.R. 25 as the vehicle.
"The current federal income tax system is broken. Patching up the existing code is pointless. It's time for a fresh approach, a fair approach. It's time for the FairTax," says the group's website. "From its humble beginnings, the income tax has grown like a cancer by taxing our hard work and discouraging savings and investment."
H.R. 25 would eliminate the federal income tax and replace it with a 23 percent consumption tax paid by the end user. That means business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services would not be taxed. The organization estimates consumer prices will drop by an estimated 20-30 percent as a result of the change.
The group's website describes how the bill's rebate function works. It assures that those living in poverty would not pay any tax.
"Under the FairTax, no American will pay taxes on necessities. The rebate will be equivalent to the tax paid on essential goods and services. The rebate will be mailed before the tax is actually paid [and] will be paid in equal installments at the beginning of the month. The size of the monthly rebate will be determined by the federal poverty level for a particular household size."
The bill's Senate version is S.1493, sponsored by Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., was introduced last year.
"If you own property, stock, or, say, one hundred acres of farmland and tax time is approaching, you don't want to make a mistake, so you're almost obliged to go to a certified public accountant, tax preparer, or tax attorney to help you file a correct return. That costs a lot of money," writes Hastert. "Now multiply the amount you have to pay by the total number of people who are in the same boat. You can't. No one can because precise numbers don't exist. But we can stipulate that we're talking about a huge amount. Now consider that a flat tax, national sales tax, or VAT would not only eliminate the need to do this, it could also eliminate the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) itself and make the process of paying taxes much easier."
Would a campaign promise to eliminate the IRS be taken seriously? If the Bush administration were really planning such a dramatic move in a second term, why would campaign officials not be making more of it? Could Bush really deliver on a promise so bold?
These were some of the questions being asked around the Capitol today. Nevertheless, the leak from Hastert is sure to sell books.
"By adopting a VAT, sales tax, or some other alternative, we could begin to change productivity," Hastert continued. "If you can do that, you can change gross national product and start growing the economy. You could double the economy over the next fifteen years. All of a sudden, the problem of what future generations owe in Social Security and Medicare won't be so daunting anymore. The answer is to grow the economy, and the key to doing that is making sure we have a tax system that attracts capital and builds incentives to keep it here instead of forcing it out to other nations."
This is nonsense. It will never happen, unfortunately.
"Just keep re-electing us, and see if we remember schemes like this after November. Spin the wheel, place your bets. Ooooops, you lose again!"
"The current federal income tax system is broken. Patching up the existing code is pointless. It's time for a fresh approach, a fair approach. It's time for the FairTax," says the group's website. "From its humble beginnings, the income tax has grown like a cancer by taxing our hard work and discouraging savings and investment."
Libs, eveywhere would still be able to send/give the gov't a donation from THEIR money. Can you think infintesimal results? Thought you could.
Mega-Ditto that ;-)
Not getting too much traction bump. Has anyone got links to the other threads on this topic that wizzed by last night? I was reading about the terrorist attacks that didn't materialize.
Ah, if only...
Paging backhoe :-)
My friend, I missed last night's-- all I have is earlier stuff:
No other instrument is more powerful for social engineering than the income tax. The libs would consider such a move armageddon for them and would move heaven and earth to stop such a move.
I would love to see someone point out why that might be a bad idea or not fair?
An idea whose time has come. I think not.
It puts the entire burden of the tax on the poor, and middle class.
The rich will not spend their millions, thus only a small portion will be taxed.
The poor will be taxed on their entire income.
The middle class will be taxed on a good portion of their income.
If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.
John Linder in the House & Saxby Chambliss Senate, offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a retail sales tax:
H.R.25, S.1493
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.Refer for additional information: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org
People would be intimidated by a 23% tax at the cash register especially the majority that live hand-to-mouth.
An underground economy would be inevitable.
BUMP
I think you are very mistaken because at this point the government has no choice but to end the incometax because of all the class action lawsuits being filed in federal courts against the irs and doj.
Hastert's remarks are nothing but an indication that the lemmings in Washington are starting to realize belatedly that they have spent our country into oblivion and additional taxation has to be imposed. Forget about your own preference and delve deeper into the problem. Whenever a politician starts to talk tax reform, he means more taxes. Anyone could have predicted that with the huge spending increases, and deficit and debt problems that caused, that more taxes would be needed. This is the tax increase that you were expecting!
Read the legislation (H.R. 25 and S. 1493) and start thinking outside the box.
Presumably, you are both posting on the FReeRepublic Forum because FReedom is important to you. By passing the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution and legislating a progressive income tax and the necessary government enforcement arm (the IRS), the US government (by design!) turned every American into a government slave.
I, for one, am damn sick and tired of being a government slave!
The National Retail Sales Tax will end American citizen slavery. If FReeing the black slaves was worth a Civil War in 1865, FReeing the American slaves is damn sure worth fighting for in 2005!
"The rich will not spend their millions, thus only a small portion will be taxed."
We're not entitled to tax "their millions," any more than we're entitled to tax your thousands or my seventeen cents.
"The poor will be taxed on their entire income.
The middle class will be taxed on a good portion of their income."
And the rich will take "their millions" and either spend like Mike Tyson or use it to create jobs to lift people from poverty to the middle class--or the upper.
Even if they put it into stocks, bonds, or savings accounts, it's still working for the common good. That's the capital that an entrepreneur borrows to start a company--like Microsoft.
We all benefit a lot more from that than we do from the state snatching it and wasting 99 cents for every dollar that arguably benefits a citizen.
"I really like the idea of 15% flat tax across the board.
I would love to see someone point out why that might be a bad idea or not fair?"
For one thing, if the past 90 years of experience with an income tax has taught anything, it is that flat INCOME taxes don't stay flat. What we have now is a flat tax 90 years removed from inception. As recently as 1986, we had an "almost flat" tax. The IRC today is far worse than the one that was simplified in 1986. The inescapable conclusion, after 90 years of attempting to define what this concept called "taxable income" is, is that it is impossible to do in a stable and economically positive way, at least within the context of our political system.
Another problem is the way that tax costs "cascade" in our production chain, driving up prices to the next level. This makes it difficult for our products to compete with those that are made outside the country and is a major factor in our trade deficit, which is currently approaching $1/2 trillion/year. Not only are US produced products less competitive than they should be in foreign markets, but even here in our own, the largest consumer market in the world. This is insane! Why in the world would we want to have a tax system which puts our producers at a disadvantage in an increasingly global economy. We need a tax system for the 21st century, not the antiquated mess we have now.
The flat tax, BTW, retains both the corporate income and the payroll taxes and therefore does nothing about the second problem discussed above.
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