How the FairTax Will Renew America (FairTax Thread #3 -Health Care)

July 9th ,2004 | Remember_Salamis

[Remember_Salamis]

bump for the healing power of the FairTax on HealthCare!

[lewislynn]

While the President is out touting the greatness of America, you, in the first few paragraphs of your so far 3 vanity posts about the mystical tax system have pretty much managed to come to agreement with the 2 Johns and the rest of the Democrat party about how much America sucks.

< sarcasm >I can hardly wait for the rest of your depressing BS essays about this country...how many more will there be exactly?< /sarcasm >

[Remember_Salamis]

Dear Goebbels,

Principled, Ancient_Geezer, and I decided a while back to post specific subtopics of a FairTax/NRST. I wrote an essay on specific topics. How in God's name can you say I'm agreeing with the John-Johns on Health Care or any other topic. The John-Johns want to increase the corporatist health care system by giving even larger tax breaks to provide health care to individuals. The Corporatist Health Care system is an freak accident, an outgrowth of wage controls during WWII. Read Milton Friedman on Health Care; he's on the same page as me. The reason voters think Dems are better with health care: we don't talks about the true problems with it. We need to move toward a consumer-based system, or or corporatist system will someday be socialized.

[jnarcus]

This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses...as with all forms of taxation it should be avoided like the plague...Come on folks use your heads once passed this will escalate and be used for everything and anything

[jnarcus]

Oh and another thing, if the US health care system is awful why is it that everyone wants to come here when they need specilized help? Don't compare us to Japan that has a heavily Buddhist population which believes in the healing powers of the local herbalist,accupressure, sccupuncture, qi quong, and the like. They don't go to MDs folks. What a loon

[TexasTransplant]

Read it,
It is not BS
If you prefer to pay your Taxes with a Gun Pointed to your head, go ahead and send that Resume off to the IRS, just remember, we are not completely disarmed, yet, (and Criminals don't pay Taxes or worry about Gun Laws) If you think Social Engineering via "Take from those that produce - give to those that don't" is a good thing, don't read it. While you are thinking about it I am going to find the Link.
The Fair Tax is the real deal, don't knock it until you know about it.
TT

[babygene]

It seems to me that the biggest advantage of the fair tax, is that it levels the playing field with regard to goods and services provided from outside the United States. It means that everything is taxed the same, regardless of it's point of origin.

With the system we have today, if an auto worker is laid off because of imports, it's not as though we let this guy and his family starve... Although the foreign company pay nothing toward unemployment, welfare etc., the taxpayer picks it up.

So we, in a sense, keep him on the payroll while the business goes overseas.

With the fair tax, all sales get taxed the same regardless of origin, making keeping the job in the U.S. more attractive. My observation as an employer, jobs go overseas because of taxes, not wages. The fair tax, is, in effect a duty on inported goods and services...

[ancient_geezer]

A Taxreform bump for you all.

If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

John Linder in the House & Saxby Chambliss Senate, offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a retail sales tax:

H.R.25, S.1493
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information: http://www.fairtax.org & http://www.salestax.org

[ancient_geezer]

This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses

A VAT taxes business purchases, thus hiding the tax from the view of the electorate. A NRST only taxes at the retail level, is clearly itemized on the bill in front of the eyes of every voter. The key is visibility my friend.

Definition [ http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/13330.html ]:

value-added tax
levy imposed on businesses at all levels of production of a good or service, and based on the increase in price, or value, added to the good or service by each level. Because all stages of a value-added tax are ultimately passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, it has been described as a hidden sales tax. Originally introduced in France (1954), it is now used by most W European countries.

The business side of the current income/payroll tax structure now in place is a subtraction method VAT, in that it is a levy imposed on businesses at all levels of production, it is passed on to the consumer hidden in the price of goods and services(on average 20-25% of the price of all goods and services), lower wages, lower returns on investment for investors, and higher interest rates(as much a 25% greater than they would be under the NRST).

OTOH; The NRST is a single stage(Retail), single rate, visible to the consumer tax, on the "retail" sale of new(untaxed) goods and service. It is not a VAT, expressly paid by the consumer not the business and is completely visible to the consumer by a receipt mandated by the law. The NRST does not tax purchases made for investment or business purposes.

Purpose of the NRST is to replace all Federal income/payroll taxes and gift/estate taxes with a single tax levied on all new goods and service once and only once at the retail level paid by the final consumer(the purchaser) of those goods or services. Goods that have been previously taxed under the NRST (i.e. used) are not taxed on resale.

The NRST is a specific remedy and replacement for the current VAT we now pay in the form of inflation and lower income(i.e. the corporate income/payroll tax). The NRST repeals over 95% of all Federal taxes currently in place and replaces them with one simple, easy to administer and understand, Retail Sales Tax.

...as with all forms of taxation it should be avoided like the plague...

Your real issue it appears.

Unfortunately not a very likely scenario to ever happen.

 

Constitution for the United States of America:

• Article VI: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

• Article I Section 8: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises,
  to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;
  but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; "

• Article I Section 8: "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

 

Hamilton, Federalist #31:

"A government ought to contain in itself every power requisite to the full accomplishment of the objects committed to its care, and to the complete execution of the trusts for which it is responsible, free from every other control but a regard to the public good and to the sense of the people."

"As revenue is the essential engine by which the means of answering the national exigencies must be procured, the power of procuring that article in its full extent must necessarily be comprehended in that of providing for those exigencies."

Federalist #12:

• "A nation cannot long exist without revenues. Destitute of this essential support, it must resign its independence, and sink into the degraded condition of a province. This is an extremity to which no government will of choice accede. Revenue, therefore, must be had at all events. In this country, if the principal part be not drawn from commerce, it must fall with oppressive weight upon land."

James Madison, Elliots Debates Vol 3 p128:

Mr. Chairman, in considering this great subject, I trust we shall find that part which gives the general government the power of laying and collecting taxes indispensable, and essential to the existence of any efficient or well-organized system of government: if we consult reason, and be ruled by its dictates, we shall find its justification there: if we review the experience we hav had or contemplate the history of nations, here we find ample reasons to prove its expediency. There is little reason to depend for necessary supplies on a body which is fully possed of the power of witholding them.

 

Come on folks use your heads once passed this will escalate and be used for everything and anything

Unlike the current system of course:

"A hand from Washington will be stretched out and placed upon every man's business; the eye of the federal inspector will be in every man's counting house....The law will of necessity have inquisical features, it will provide penalties, it will create complicated machinery. Under it men will be hauled into courts distant from their homes. Heavy fines imposed by distant and unfamiliar tribunals will constantly menace the tax payer. An army of federal inspectors, spies, and detectives will descend upon the state."
-- Virginian House Speaker Richard E. Byrd, 1910, predicting the consequences of an income tax.

 

Taxes & Government Spending:

• "The income tax in effect makes us vassals to the government – the politicians decide how much income we can keep. No mere “reform” of this slave tax, such as flattening the rate, can correct its fundamental denial of control over our own money. Only the abolition of the income tax itself will restore the basic American principle that our income is both our own money and our own private business - not the government's."

• "Replacing the income tax with a national sales tax would rejuvenate independence and responsibility in our citizens. True economic liberty and moral revival go hand in hand."

• "A national sales tax would also put the American citizen back in control of national fiscal policy. The best way to curtail government spending is to cut taxes, because they can’t spend what they don’t get. But with a sales tax, we could deny funds to a spendthrift government – and give ourselves a tax cut – whenever we make the private choice to alter our spending and saving habits."

[Principled]

Interesting take, Remember_Salamis-

Thanks for posting it!

[Principled]

This is no different that the dreaded VAT (value added tax) that the UK uses...

Ehhhh????? it is the polar opposite of a VAT!

Indeed our current graduated income tax behaves like a VAT - it adds tax costs at every stage of production. Those costs are now HIDDEN in the prices of ALL goods and services and amount to 22-26% of prices. Did you know that 22-26% of EVERYTHING you spend is actually federal tax and tax costs??

The nrst in HR 25 is the antithesis of a VAT. You should spend 4 minutes at the link.

[Principled]

...if the US health care system is awful why...

The US system isn't awful, it's the best in the world. Like many things, it can be improved. That's the point I saw.

[Principled]

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/index.html

link

[Principled]

It seems to me that the biggest advantage of the fair tax, is that it levels the playing field with regard to goods and services provided from outside the United States.

That was the topic of a recent thread.

And you're right imo.

[Remember_Salamis]

"if the US health care system is awful why is it that everyone wants to come here when they need specilized help?"

-- It's because many of those countries have socialized medecine, which is worse than the corporatist healthcare system we have. But a consumer-driven system is superior to all of them. We can't settle for a system that's simply better than the rest. We need to make it even better. Furthermore, the corporatists system cannot contain itself, and our nation will either go to (1) a socialized system, or (2) a consumer-driven system. President Bush knows this, and is a driving force behind his Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs), a cornerstone of any future consumer-driven system.

[Your Nightmare]

Under the current system, the price of goods and services are inflated 20-30% due to imbedded taxes.

You mean goods, not services. I haven't seen anything that's talked about the price of services.

And what makes you think the cost of health care goods would drop? There are much higher margins in the health care industry and recouping R&D costs is a good portion of prices.

[Your Nightmare]

President Bush knows this, and is a driving force behind his Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs), a cornerstone of any future consumer-driven system.

The current implementation of MSAs is critically flawed. The account doesn't carry over from year to year. If, by the end of the year, you don't spend the amount you chose to withhold at the beginning, you lose it.

[TexasTransplant]

Thank you for

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/index.html

[TruthNtegrity]

How about links to threads 1 and 2?

The search capability at this place frequently fails us in finding previous threads.