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ACLU demands removal of cross from Los Angeles County seal
AP News ^ | MAy 25,th 2004 | JOHN ANTCZAK

Posted on 05/26/2004 6:19:10 PM PDT by missyme

Edited on 05/26/2004 6:21:47 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - The American Civil Liberties Union is demanding the removal of a tiny cross that is among historic symbols on Los Angeles County's official seal. The seal "prominently depicts a Latin cross, a sectarian religious symbol that represents the beliefs of one segment of the county's diverse population" and is an "impermissible endorsement of Christianity" by the county government, the ACLU Foundation of Southern California said in a letter to county officials this week. "Under clearly established law, the seal is unconstitutional," the letter said, warning that refusal to remove the cross in a "reasonable time-frame" would cause the ACLU to seek a court order.

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TOPICS: Announcements; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aclu; antichristian; christianity; christians; churchandstate; cross; doublestandard; la; lacountyseal; losangeles; missions; paragraphsryerfriend; purge; religion; religiousintolerance; spanishmissions
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To: missyme
Who needs the L.A. Times! They tried to take down Free Republic. A little searching will usually turn up the same story elsewhere.

Best line: Mike Antonovich, County Supervisor, “Your failure to understand the history and to rewrite it from the so-called political correctness follows the hate of past book burners.”

ACLU Threatens County Seal Lawsuit
Newhall Signal - 5/26/04

The American Civil Liberties Union says it will sue the county unless it removes a tiny cross from its official seal.

The ACLU Southern California chapter said Monday the “Latin cross” on the nearly 50-year-old seal is a religious symbol and represents a government-sponsored endorsement of Christianity. The seal was adopted 47 years ago.

“Los Angeles County is the most diverse county in the United States, and if the city of Redlands decided it had to do something, we think the county of Los Angeles should also,” ACLU Executive Director Ramona Ripston said.

The organization said the complaint was prompted by phone calls it received after the city of Redlands recently agreed to remove a cross from its seal.

Fifth District Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich defended the county seal and criticized the ACLU’s threat, which the organization articulated in a letter last week.

“Your May 19th letter concerning Los Angeles County was right out of a George Orwell novel,” Antonovich told the ACLU in a statement Tuesday. “Your failure to understand the history and to rewrite it from the so-called political correctness follows the hate of past book burners.”

Antonovich said the county’s history began in the 1700s “when Father Serra built a mission, named after St. Gabriel, in the San Gabriel Valley. This was followed a few years later when members of the church walked 12 miles to today’s Olvera Street to build the pueblo. Later, the mission in San Fernando was built.”

Antonovich noted that the pueblo was named “the Angels,” and that “names from the Bible have been used to name cities and streets.”

“The cross on our county seal reflects these historical facts,” his statement said. “It does not mean that we are all Roman Catholic or that everyone who resides in our county is a Christian.”

Antonovich thought it curious that the ACLU singled out a Christian symbol.

“Also figured prominently on the county seal is Pomona, the mythical Roman goddess of fruit,” Antonovich’s statement said. “Regarding a pagan goddess on the county’s seal, the ACLU’s silence is deafening.”

County spokeswoman Judy Hammond said removing the cross from the seal would cost “untold thousands and thousands of dollars” because the image appears on many of the county’s 5,000 buildings and thousands of vehicles, as well as stationery, business cards, plaques, flags and Internet sites.

ACLU threatens county suit
Group wants cross removed from seal - By Troy Anderson
Los Angeles Daily News 5/25/04

Nearly half a century after Los Angeles County adopted an official seal with a tiny cross in it, the local American Civil Liberties Union chapter declared it unconstitutional and threatened on Monday to sue to have it removed.

The ACLU Southern California chapter said the "Latin cross" on the seal is a "sectarian religious symbol" and reflects an "impermissible endorsement of Christianity."

The seal was adopted 47 years ago but the ACLU never challenged it. The organization said its complaint was prompted by phone calls it received after the city of Redlands recently agreed to remove a cross from the city seal.

The letter to the county is similar to one the ACLU sent to Redlands.

"Los Angeles County is the most diverse county in the United States, and if the city of Redlands decided it had to do something, we think the county of Los Angeles should also," ACLU Executive Director Ramona Ripston said.

Douglas W. Kmiec, chairman and professor of constitutional law at the Pepperdine University School of Law, said there is little in U.S. Supreme Court precedents that would "demand such erasure of history."

"I think this is unfortunately an all-too-commonplace effort to revise history and to expunge from the historical record all evidence of religious belief," Kmiec said. "It would be hard, it seems to me, to conclude that anyone seeing the seal of Los Angeles County would feel coerced to believe in a particular religious faith."

The county seal was designed by former county Supervisor Kenneth Hahn, the father of Los Angeles Mayor James Hahn, and was adopted by the Board of Supervisors on March 1, 1957.

The cross represents the influence of the church and the history of the missions of California, which dates back to the 1700s when missions were built in San Fernando and San Gabriel, according to the county's Web site.

Mayor Hahn stands by the seal and is disappointed by the ACLU's threats that the cross should be eliminated, said his spokeswoman Shannon Murphy. She said it represents a cross at the Pilgrimage Theater, near the Hollywood Bowl, and that the mayor believes it is an important part of Los Angeles history.

County spokeswoman Judy Hammond said removing it would cost "untold thousands and thousands of dollars" because the seal is on many of the county's 5,000 buildings, thousands of vehicles, stationery, business cards, plaques, flags and Internet sites.

Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich wrote in a letter to Ripston that her letter was "right out of a George Orwell novel. Your failure to understand the history and to rewrite it from the so-called political correctness follows the hate of past book burners."

"To say Christians have no rights and we are not a part of the history of this county is offensive to us who are Christians," said Pastor Stan Lubeck of the Church at Rocky Peak in Chatsworth.

Earlier thread on this story.

41 posted on 05/26/2004 6:52:30 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: ThomasMore
Statement: "...Im sick of this crap."

Response. Many people share your sentiments. However, bide your time and store up your wrath. Many people are.

42 posted on 05/26/2004 6:58:06 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: concentric circles
The American Civil Liberties Union is demanding the removal of a tiny cross that is among historic symbols on Los Angeles County's official seal.

Good idea, they should replace it with something more appropriate. How about a hammer and sickle?
43 posted on 05/26/2004 7:00:03 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: missyme
Ah, the good ol' ACLU is at it again with another anti-Christian lawsuit.

Hey, I wonder what's next? A ban on all lowercase 'T's because they look like crosses?

I hate the ACLU.

44 posted on 05/26/2004 7:11:41 PM PDT by DemWatch
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- - - - County of Los Angeles - - - -

45 posted on 05/26/2004 7:16:50 PM PDT by concentric circles
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To: missyme

That's a great point. What's next, the city's name?!

46 posted on 05/26/2004 7:27:59 PM PDT by GOPrincess
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To: missyme

I normally don't watch O'Reilly, but I didn't change the channel after Brit and the TV was on for background noise.

Anyway, he did an excellent job interviewing a lawyer who was defending the ACLU.

He asked her what Los Angeles means. She said City of Angels. He then asked if she wants to change the name of the city. She stammered a bit before saying that most people think of Los Angeles as Los Angeles, not the City of Angels.

47 posted on 05/26/2004 7:36:34 PM PDT by alnick (Mrs. Heinz-Kerry's husband wants teh-rayz-ah your taxes.)
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To: missyme

Hey, ACLU: [unprintable][scatological][anatomically difficult]!

48 posted on 05/26/2004 8:09:11 PM PDT by King Prout (the difference between "trained intellect" and "indoctrinated intellectual" is an Abyssal gulf)
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To: missyme


49 posted on 05/26/2004 8:11:56 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: missyme

What if someone were to just say "no" to the thugs?

What if everyone were to just say "no" to the thugs?

50 posted on 05/26/2004 8:20:38 PM PDT by Skooz (My Biography: Psalm 40:1-3)
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To: freekitty
No Way......That cross belongs to the American Taxpayers; not the ACLU.

AMEN....and I VOTE as a California resident to have it ENLARGED!!!!!!!!!

51 posted on 05/26/2004 8:25:22 PM PDT by pollywog (Psalm 121;1 I Lift mine eyes to the hills from whence cometh my help.)
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To: Audra Estones
Don't laugh. Next the ACLU will demand the removal of the name Los Angeles, since the Angels is an obvious Christian reference......


The name Los Angeles is Spanish for The Angels. There is much more to this name, however. On Wednesday, August 2, 1769, Father Juan Crespi, a Franciscan priest accompanying the first European land expedition through California, led by Captain Fernando Rivera Y Moncado, described in his journal a "beautiful river from the northwest" located at "34 degrees 10 minutes." They named the river Nuestra Señora de los Angeles de la Porciúncula. In the Franciscan calendar, August 2 was the day of the celebration of the feast of the Perdono at the tiny Assisi chapel of St. Francis of Assisi. Early in St. Francis’ life, the Benedictines had given him this tiny chapel for his use near Assisi. The chapel, ruined and in need of repair, was located on what the Italians called a porziuncola or "very small parcel of land." Painted on the wall behind the altar was a fresco of the Virgin Mary surrounded by angels. Now contained within a Basilica, the chapel was named Saint Mary of the Angels at the Little Portion. The newly discovered "beautiful river" was named in honor of this celebration and this chapel. In 1781, a new settlement was established along that river. The settlement came to be known as El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciúncula or The Town of Our Lady the Queen of Angels of the Little Portion although its official name was simply El Pueblo de la Reina de Los Angeles. From The Los Angeles Almanac

"La Reina de Los Angeles" obviously refers to Mary, the Mother of Jesus. I demand that the city be renamed "Brucie" or something equally innocuous and secular!

I am soooo offended! </sarcasm>

52 posted on 05/26/2004 8:27:31 PM PDT by mfulstone
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To: missyme

ACLU= Absolutely Cannot Love the United States

53 posted on 05/26/2004 8:29:49 PM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: missyme
One wonders what the ACLU people will be acting like when they're facing Final Judgment.

"But...but...but... I fought for a pluralistic society!"

54 posted on 05/26/2004 9:59:25 PM PDT by Luircin (Saved by grace, only grace, purely grace, and very insistent grace)
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To: mfulstone
I am soooo offended!

We have to take a stand somewhere, we cannot possibly live and offer no offense to someone. LA, keep the cross. ANd Stanford, drop the Cardnals, and go back to the Indians.

55 posted on 05/26/2004 10:13:51 PM PDT by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: Skooz

Ok, just call the ACLU's bluff and "black out" the cross.

56 posted on 05/26/2004 11:20:18 PM PDT by boop
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To: missyme

But the Greek goddess on the seal, is OK.

Ever notice how all the other religions but Christianity are OK, no consequence etc.?

And, no one goes around saying

"OH BUDDHA!" as a curse word.

There's a message in all that.

Satan doesn't hassle the things which give him no flack, which cause him no grief.

57 posted on 05/26/2004 11:22:24 PM PDT by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: Quix
The following, of course, is acceptable in California schools:

By Reverend Austin Miles
Special to ASSIST News Service
Wednesday, January 9, 2002

BRENTWOOD, CA (ANS) -- As children return to school this week, following the Christmas break, 7th graders in a growing number of public schools, who are not permitted to wear a cross or speak the name of Jesus, will be required to attend an intensive three week course on Islam; a course in which students are mandated to learn the tenets of Islam, study the important figures of the faith, wear a robe, adopt a Muslim name and stage their own Jihad.

In Byron, California, parents were outraged when students came home with their handouts and were told what was being taught. Their complaints to the school principal not only were ignored, but officials of this public school, funded by tax dollars, essentially fluffed them off.

The public schools in California so stealthily slipped this course into the 7th grade curriculum that even another 7th grade teacher, Elizabeth Christina Lemings, was totally in the dark that this was being taught until her son, Joseph, who is a 7th grader in the same school where she teaches, brought home the handouts.

“We could never teach Christianity like this,” Lemings said to ANS during anon-site interview. “We can't even mention the name of Jesus in the public schools, but over there…,” she pointed to the building next to hers, “they teach Islam as the true religion, and students are taught about Islam and how to pray to Allah.”

Lemings, in her second year of teaching in the Byron (Northern California) Union School District, has been a Christian since 1987. The government school system requires that she teach evolution in her science class with no reference to creationism or any contrasting viewpoint to Darwin’s theory. She quickly learned that God and Christianity are out (forbidden) but that Islam is in.

The textbook used for the Islamic course, Across The Centuries, is published by Houghton-Mifflin (Boston, Ma). It is described as a Social Studies/History book and has been adopted by the California School System.

In it, Islam is presented broadly in a totally positive manner, whereas the restricted references to Christianity, is centered on The Reformation, Martin Luther and The Catholic Church. Everything Christian is shown in a negative light, with events such as the Inquisition, the Salem witch-hunts, etc., highlighted in bold, black type.

This is proper for a complete study of history. However, there is not one negative to be found about Islam in this one-sided account, such as the wars, massacres, cruelties against Christians and other non-Muslims that Islam has consistently perpetrated over the centuries.

Nor is any mention made of the way Muslims treat their own people, cutting off hands, feet and heads for even the slightest violations of the Islamic tenets of faith, or the shocking way they treat their women.

The ‘miraculous’ events leading up to the Koran, the ‘holy’ book of Islam, and other ‘revelations’ are presented as factual. Any reference of the miraculous regarding Christianity is always set next to a disclaimer stating that; “It was (is) believed by Christians (or an individual such as Martin Luther) that…..,”implying an absence of credibility about the stated event.

For example, the representation that Gabriel the archangel came to Muhammad (Note: not believed to have come to Muhammad) and dictated to him the Koran, a whole new revelation and idea that would surpass all other religions.

What needs to be explained by the Houghton-Mifflin historians, is why Gabriel (which translates, “Man of God”), the archangel of both Christians and Jews, who was a part of all of God's plan, who interpreted for Daniel the vision of the ram and the he-goat, and comforted him after his prayer with the prophecy of the ‘seventy weeks’ and who heralded the good tidings by declaring the coming of the predicted Messiah, would at that point in time and history, call on Muhammad, one who did not believe in Jehovah God or Jesus as the Son of God, and ‘reveal’ to him the words of the pagan god Allah to lead his people with. How's that again?

It would be most interesting to have the Houghton-Mifflin experts explain what possessed Gabriel to turn on the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ to lend assistance to what would become a murderous cult with no regard for life, the very antithesis of Christianity. There is a deplorable lack of information here.

And too, the Book of Revelation clearly states that no words should be added or taken away from that book. So this in itself poses a major contradiction and problem.

The faulty textbook, Across the Centuries, has more than its share of deceit. It is stated as fact that Islam, Judaism and Christianity share in common the belief in one god. This is a half-truth, which is the worst kind of lie. Christianity and Judaism worship one God, the God of Abraham. Islam worships one god named Allah. This hook is misleading on the part of Houghton-Mifflin. The publisher apparently is attempting to legitimize Islam.

If this were an authentic history, the textbook would explain that the god of Muhammad was man's creation. Arabia was a pagan nation that worshiped over 300 gods. One of those was the moon god named, al-ilah. Legend has it that the moon god mated with the sun god and had two daughters, both of whom were worshiped as goddesses. When Muhammad claimed to have had his ‘vision’ and ‘revelation from Gabriel’ he chose al-ilah as the god to build his army around.

Muhammad shortened the name, al-ilah, to, Allah, and declared that he alone should be worshiped. He forbade the worship of the daughters. To this day, a crescent moon can be found at the front of every mosque, acknowledging that Allah was, and is the moon god. All of this is missing from the Houghton-Mifflin accounts.

It is also to be noted, even though not publicized, that Allah is also known as, The God of War. So why isn't this important study of Islam included in the history books?

The handouts used in this course, obtained by ANS, are considerable. They include a history of Islam and the life of Muhammad its founder.

Muhammad is portrayed as an extremely moral man who wanted a society of purity. A vast body of historical accounts will refute this image. Historians will show that he had multiple wives, a sexual problem, and among his wives, he took a 10-year-old girl for his pleasure (some accounts list her age as 6).

And Islam promises its followers that those who become suicide bombers, killing themselves and others, will go directly to Allah's paradise where they will be given 72 virgins for unbridled sexual pleasure for all of eternity.

There are many verses in the Koran that must be memorized in this Public School course and students are taught to pray, “in the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful” and to chant, “Praise to Allah, Lord of Creation.”

There are 25 Islamic terms that must be memorized, six Islamic (Arabic) phrases, 20 Islamic Proverbs to learn along with the Five Pillars of Faith and 10 key Islamic prophets and disciples to be studied.

“Can you imagine the barrage of lawsuits and problems we would have from the ACLU if Christianity were taught in the public schools, and if we tried to teach about the contributions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the Apostle Paul?” teacher Elizabeth Lemings lamented. “But when it comes to furthering the Islamic religion in the public schools, there is not one word from the ACLU, People For The American Way or anybody else. This is hypocrisy!”

Even more disturbing; students are to pretend that they are Muslims, wear Muslim clothing to school, stage their own Jihad via a dice game, and pick out a Muslim name (to replace their own) from a list of thirty.

ANS asked some of the students what they thought about this course. All of them felt that “it was fun,” while others described Islam as “a pretty culture." This included a pastor's son! Joseph Lemings, 12, said, “The Jihad was like playing a video game,” even though the true violent nature of Jihad was well concealed.

Lemings is disturbed by the “fun” description. She sees it as a tool, not only to engender sympathy and support for the Muslim cause, but for recruitment. “This is not just a class of history of examining culture,” she said. “This course is entirely too specific. It is more about indoctrination.”

Lemings, upon learning of the course on Islam, approached the principal of Intermediate-Excelsior School of Byron, Nancy Castro, requesting the right to teach Christianity in the manner that Islam is taught and for the same length of time.

Castro has not responded to her request. Lemings later received, round about, information that the only way she could do this would be to teach the Christianity class (as a Christian Club) after school hours where students would come of their own accord. Otherwise, she would violate the law of (selective) Separation of Church and State. Excuse me?

In an interview with Nancy Castro, the principal of the schools in Byron, she stated to ANS that the Islam course (hidden within “History of Cultures”) reflects California (educational) Standards that meet State requirements.

When asked about the intensity of the Islamic course, Castro stated that the course “is not religion, but Ancient Culture and History. And,” she pointed out, “the text is a State Adopted textbook. We do not endorse any religion, we just make students aware.”

She stated that the textbook is now in use throughout California. When asked if she would allow Christianity to be taught the same way that Islam is taught, Castro stammered before saying that Christianity is already taught in the History and Culture class, “which,” she said, “actually starts in the 6th grade.”

She said that this class started a year ago. The Christianity that is taught is brief, taught as a myth, and strictly negative. This is how it is portrayed in the textbook.

Lemings had stated to ANS that there were many, many parents who protested this course on Islam, especially after September 11th (which, coincidentally, is when the course began). Nancy Castro contradicted this account.

Asked if there was any response from parents about this course, Castro answered, “Oh a couple of parents called to express concerns, three to be exact.”

Peggy Green, Superintendent of the Byron Union School District did not return calls by press time.

The Muslim's intentions are clear and the public has been continually notified of that fact. In nearby Fremont, where the majority of the over 150,000 Muslims living in the Bay Area reside, Omar M. Ahmad, chairman of the board of the Council on American-Islamic relations said this at the Flamingo Palace banquet hall: “I urge Muslims not to shirk their duty of sharing the Islamic faith with those who are on the ‘wrong-side.’”

He said that Muslims should not assimilate into American society. “If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam…Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth,” he said. These quotes were published in the ”San Ramon Valley Herald” on July 4, 1998, (ironically on our Independence Day), 3 years, 2 months and 7 days before September 11, 2001. And like everything else, Americans and church leaders didn't pay any attention to it. In the same article, Ahmad stated: “Everything we need to know is in the Koran.” And bear in mind that the Koran clearly states that Muslims are obligated to kill Christians, Jews and all other infidels.

** You may use this story with proper attribution.

58 posted on 05/27/2004 12:31:36 AM PDT by Susannah (Have you thanked a soldier lately for your freedom?-
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To: Brilliant

Who IS funding them? And why can't anyone form an organization specifically to oppose them?

59 posted on 05/27/2004 1:45:25 AM PDT by Clock King
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To: Prime Choice

The problem is the courts and judges who act like little dictators. Someone somewhere has to have the guts to ignore these evil people when they make a ruling in favor of the ACLU.

60 posted on 05/27/2004 1:47:41 AM PDT by Clock King
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