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To: Havoc
For roughly 1500 years of History, Catholicism has tried to present itself as the church, A few hundred years after they started, The roman catholics popped up and decided to say they were "the church" and imposed themselves upon the world through fraud as the church and the rightful rulers of empire (the donation of constantine, isidorian and gratian decretals.. etc). From the time of Theodosius forward, anyone claiming Christianity that didn't follow the belief of the sect Theodosius called Catholic was subject to maltreatment, persecution and extermination.

Well the term "Roman Catholics" was coined by Protestants. The Church is THE Christian church. to say that The roman catholics popped up and decided to say they were "the church" is incredibly laughable. It's like saying that the American revolutionaries were involved in taking over Britain from the Celts.

BTW: history lesson: Many of the early Christian Emperors were ARIAN not orthodox.
267 posted on 05/27/2004 9:52:28 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: Cronos
Well the term "Roman Catholics" was coined by Protestants. The Church is THE Christian church. to say that The roman catholics popped up and decided to say they were "the church" is incredibly laughable.

Point taken. It was overly general wasn't it. I should have said "schizmed off".

275 posted on 05/27/2004 10:01:52 AM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: Cronos
BTW: history lesson: Many of the early Christian Emperors were ARIAN not orthodox.

Bingo. This is actually fun (watch this):

http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp

What "Catholic" Means

The Greek roots of the term "Catholic" mean "according to (kata-) the whole (holos)," or more colloquially, "universal." At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term "Catholic" in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.

The term "Catholic" is in the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, and many Protestants, claiming the term for themselves, give it a meaning that is unsupported historically, ignoring the term’s use at the time the creeds were written.

Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: "As regards ‘Catholic’ . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).

Thus people who recite the creeds mentally inserting another meaning for "Catholic" are reinterpreting them according to a modern preference, much as a liberal biblical scholar does with Scripture texts offensive to contemporary sensibilities.

Included in the quotes below are extracts from the first creeds to use the term "Catholic"; so that the term can be seen it its historical context, which is supplied by the other quotations. It is from this broader context that the meaning of the term in the creeds is established, not by one’s own notion of what the term once meant or of what it ought to mean.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

The Muratorian Canon

"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).

349 posted on 05/27/2004 11:59:26 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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