Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) -- As president of the Christian Coalition of Alabama, John Giles is no stranger to a pew. Yet he remembers well the time he got lost in a Roman Catholic church.
"I couldn't even follow the order of service, it was so foreign to me," Giles says of that day some six years ago.
Since then he's found his way and a new home in the Roman Catholic church — a home that might seem foreign to the overwhelmingly Protestant church population of Alabama.
"I have to admit to you that the whole time that I was in that church service, I was reduced to tears, and I couldn't explain it," Giles said Monday in an interview with The Associated Press.
"In fact," he jokes, "you would have thought I had been spending the whole weekend down at the House of the Rising Sun down in New Orleans, that I had all this sin in my life that I had to get out."
In any case, Giles and his wife, Deborah, were received into the Catholic Church at St. Peter's Parish in Montgomery on Easter Sunday.
Such a decision normally wouldn't be a matter of public interest, but Giles says he anticipated the questions that have followed his conversion from the Protestant faith.
"It would be nice if my private, Christian walk could be my private, Christian walk, but it's very difficult in my job for that to be the case," he says.
Giles says he knew the questions would come because as a Protestant he, too, had mistaken notions about Catholics. And the most frequent question he gets from his friends is "why?"
With that in mind he wrote an eight-page letter explaining his reasoning. In it, he explains that he had attended a variety of Protestant churches in Montgomery, including Christian Life Church and River of Life Church.
But once he visited the Roman Catholic church, he found himself in awe of its history and ritual, particularly its use of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch in each service.
Trips to Israel and Rome spurred his curiosity. And the deeper he looked into the faith — which is the largest in the United States but lags behind Southern Baptists and other Protestant denominations in the South — the more he says he realized that many of his beliefs about Catholicism had been wrong.
"There is a perception among Protestants — you kind of have this perception that if you're Episcopal or Catholic, you're not even saved, you're not born again, which is totally a myth," he says.
He recalls one example from the New Year's holiday, which he spent in Florida with the chairman of his board. He had told the chairman of his and Deborah's plans to convert, and he says they were well-received.
"But we went to some other friends of theirs' house on one of the nights we were down there," Giles remembers. "And so we're sitting around visiting and this one lady was teaching a Sunday School class on cults. And she began to name off all the cults that she'd be teaching and named Catholic in there."
He acknowledges that the reaction by his Protestant constituents may be mixed.
"We didn't make this change to win friends and influence people and do it from a popularity standpoint, because we knew that in the state of Alabama, this is probably not a popular position to take in the Christian movement," he says. "So it remains to be seen."
But he hopes they, like he and his wife, will keep an open mind.
"We hope that we could have a small contribution to building bridges where there weren't bridges," he says. "Because Christians are Christians. There's no such thing as Christians and Catholics."
Christian scripture defines the saints as all christians both living and dead. The Catholic church defines saints as a select few that have passed on and that the church has deemed worthy. If the two are one and the same, then why do the definitions not match? I would note that this is not the only glaring difference. And though it be minor compared to many, it serves to beg the question. This is why we are to compare what teachers come preaching with what the apostles put down for us to know. So that we individually would have some basis upon which to judge whether someone was yanking our collective chain or not. It is incidentally, also why most groups claiming to be christian try to tie themselves as close to scripture outwardly as possible - so as to beg it's authority for anything they can make it seem to say.. That's what I like about black and white examples.. hard to run away from.
That's another one I forgot to mention before. If you think they are so "different," where exactly did the foundations of all other Christian denominations come from? Thin air?
Ah, I see, misusing the word again. Do you know the English language? Seriously. Prejudice is judging absent any knowledge. You'd be hard pressed to deny what I'm saying because its in your own teachings. I know, I've debated the stuff for years now. And praytell, what do other denominations have to do with what you do? I'm aware you're trying to use that as a rhetorical device to shift onus from your own problems to someone elses as though that buys you any credibility. Didn't work as a child when mom slapped you and you said 'well brother did it too' and it ain't gonna work as an adult either.
Whether you like it or not, for 1500 years, Catholicism was THE Church
Umm. For roughly 1500 years of History, Catholicism has tried to present itself as the church, A few hundred years after they started, The roman catholics popped up and decided to say they were "the church" and imposed themselves upon the world through fraud as the church and the rightful rulers of empire (the donation of constantine, isidorian and gratian decretals.. etc). From the time of Theodosius forward, anyone claiming Christianity that didn't follow the belief of the sect Theodosius called Catholic was subject to maltreatment, persecution and extermination. These are not secrets. Anyone that disagreed with Rome was systematically hunted down and destroyed.. Ala the Waldensians.
Rome wasn't "the church", it was "the aggressor" trying to suppress anything that threatened them by exposing what they were - Like Valla who nearly went before the inquisition for merely telling the truth. And like a famous bishop who dared quote history and was called a heretic for his long speach. I'm sure you are familiar with your own church history are you not.
And how come I've had to change very little of what I believe to go from being Baptist to being Catholic?
Little differences are major problems depending on the differences. This is called rhetoric being applied. Doesn't much match the real world where ex-catholics can come in here and say "What the heck is he talking about..."
I'll give you a hint: they're not as different as you think. Just because you claim to know the "real truth" about the Church doesn't mean you're correct.
Well, you see, that's why the apostles wrote things down for us - so we could all read their words and make such determinations.
Maybe your little secrets of "I know what the Church actually stands for" would work on some Catholic-in-name-only. It won't work on me, because I've been there. I was stooped in this brand of anti-Catholicism growing up.
Not little secrets, I'm sorry to say. What I'm discussing is pretty much common knowledge. And your attempt to duck and hide behind general statements is pretty standard for someone who can't engage on specifics.
Veneration is absolutely NOT equal to worship.
Read the qualifying definitives for Veneration and for worship - identical. I've actually posted them side by side in debate on this site in the Christian Chronicles threads to the absolute loathing of your fellow catholics. But as you are loathe to use dictionary terms correctly, I understand that we're supposed to close our eyes, rip the pages out of our dictionary and our bibles and take your word for it..
To venerate is to honor, NOT to worship.
You may wish to invest in a real dictionary. And then you may want to go correct the Archeologists with Doctorate degrees and beyond who are using it properly to denote worship of the gods of Egypt on (brace yourself) TV - Oh, woe is us, how could A&E or History Channel let such people get by with using such words with such regard for what they actually mean. The heavens will fall.
Catholics honor Mary because she was the vessel for God's work. She is not God, and nowhere do Catholics say she is. God is the only one deserving of our worship and adoration. I wish Protestants would drop this stupid argument.
Yep, been over this ground so many times I could probably go 10 years without tilling it again and your rhetoric is good fertilizer; but, not much more. I quoted the pope on another thread some time back asking Mary to secure his salvation for him in not those precise words but close enough. I think it's utterly fair to say that Mary couldn't do that if she wanted to. But, it's in the writings as far back as one can see. It's taught within the church, outside the church - on the radar and beneath it and your own pope lauds the notions. Assigning to Mary (and lets not forget the saint of dogbites and the like) things that only God or the Annointed one himself could do. Now, unless I get rousted out of my sleep again to come answer another of these tonight, I'm crawling back in bed lol.
Shreds the same either way... ;)
I originally posted in response to Eisenhower who said...
***P.S. Veneration is absolutely NOT equal to worship. Where you get this definition is beyond me.***
syn·o·nym
"A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language."
Now as to the definitions...
ven·er·ate
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference. See Synonyms at revere1.
wor·shiped,
1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.
"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
Look up communion of saints - in the catechism - not from A&E or Websters please.
That's just for starters on your last post, Havoc.
Friend, you've been shown all this before, just post a link to proper place in the Neverending Story thread.
Paragraph 5. The Communion of Saints
946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479 The communion of saints is the Church.
But don't let me spoil your fun with the thesaurus. Try this: I bet you can start with "worship" and find a thread of synonyms that lead you to "kiss." Bet you can do it in less than five steps.
***Fine.***
So you agree that in standard usage Venerate and Worship are basically synonamous?
***And when they say they respect their elders, they really mean they worship them.***
1. Are Catholics in the habit of kneeling or bowing before statues of Mary?
2. Can you give me one example in the Bible of a person praying to anyone but God?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life (John 5:24). "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28). Jesus also promises never to cast out or lose anyone that His Father gives Him (John 6:37, 39). The promises of Jesus to all believers are clear and are guaranteed by His divine power and attributes. Having received eternal life, the sheep will follow the Shepherd who will keep them and protect them. Jesus promises they will never be judged for their sins, will not experience spiritual death, shall not perish and will never be cast out or lost. How can Christians say they trust Jesus and not believe His promises?
God the Father has caused His children to be born again to a living hope. They are now protected by His power and will obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and reserved for them in heaven (1 Pet. 1:3-5). This inheritance has been securely guaranteed by the sealing of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:11-14). The Father, who calls believers into fellowship with His Son, is faithful and will confirm them until the end (1 Cor. 1:8,9). He promises to glorify those He justifies (Rom 8:30). God’s children have this assurance: "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:6). On that spectacular day, all believers will be revealed with Him in glory (Col. 3:4). Everyone who has trusted Christ can have the same confidence as Paul who wrote: "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
Believers also have the assurance that God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29). The amazing gifts God gives to repentant sinners include eternal life (Rom. 6:23), the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and the righteousness of Jesus (Rom. 5:17). Those who have received these gifts will never again be separated from God and never come into judgment for their sins. Opponents of assurance will say that people can give back the gifts or throw them away. But where is the Scriptural support for this? God has credited the gift of righteousness to the believer’s account. Does man have access to God’s books to change His accounting?
The Lord knows those who are His and everyone who names the name of Christ must depart from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19). But what does God do with any of His children who persist in sinning? He chastens them, as a loving Father, so they will not be condemned along with the world (1 Cor. 11:32). God’s chastening has a purifying effect on those who do not judge themselves. His discipline will continue until there is repentance or until He calls them home. Those who fall away or fall into habitual sin without God’s chastening were never His children (Heb. 12:6-9).
The Roman Catholic Catechism (CCC) teaches that Catholics lose their salvation when mortal sins are committed (CCC, para. 1035). Catholics must do works of penance and merit enough grace to regain their salvation (CCC, para. 1456, 2027). Needless to say, Catholics can never be sure about their eternal destiny because, whenever man is involved in attaining and/or preserving his salvation, there can never be assurance. However, when man forsakes all efforts to save himself and believes the objective truth of the Gospel, he will be more certain of living eternally in heaven than one more day on earth. There is no way a mortal man can do maintenance on an eternal gift from God. Paul wrote, "For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all" (Rom. 4:16).
John wrote his first epistle to those "who believe on the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know [Gk. oida] you have eternal life (1 John 5:13). The Greek word "oida" refers to a positive, absolute knowledge. True believers can rejoice in their salvation with absolute certainty and peace. The question for professing Christians is not "Will God will keep His promises?" but "Have I been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone?" This means forsaking all other attempts at salvation through sacraments, good works, indulgences, purgatory, the sacrifice of the Mass, obeying the Law and the intercession of Mary.
1) It's synonymous. And it doesn't mean you can replace one with the other with no change in meaning. Otherwise we got about 75,000 useless words in our language.
2) You don't get your theology from the thesaurus or a dictionary. The dictionary is a compilation of how words are used in speech and writing at the time; it is not an arbitrator of the correct use. It is most certainly NOT a reference for the correct meaning of words as used in the theology of my or your church.
3) I think it is blasphemous that you worshiped the girl you asked to dance in seventh grade, and slightly less heretical that you protestants worship women when you ask them to marry you.
4) Catholics do not teach that Mary is God or that they should pray to her. We do ask her to pray for us.
5) I pray that we may respect each other as intelligent people who love Jesus. I ask you to pray for me that I may have patience and charity.
Two interesting posts from you that I would mostly agree with....hmmm.
The mass unites us with Christ -- it IS in remembrance of the last supper, His sacrifice AND His resurrection and life everlasting.
bump!
Nice post #33. I don't classify Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Rev. Moon's group as Protestants though.
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