Scarborough Country Transcript: Swift Boat John O' Neill & Pat Buchanan on the Letter to John Kerry

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight‘s top headline: Some vets say John Kerry is unfit to command our troops, while others call him an American hero. The “Real Deal”: Vietnam cuts both ways for the White House hopeful.

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, where no passport is required and only common sense is allowed.

Did John Kerry‘s fight against the Vietnam War after returning as a decorated veteran disqualify him from being president? A group of vets who served with him says yes. But those who joined him in battle say no way.

Plus, it‘s been a deadly month in Iraq, but President Bush is holding his own in the polls. So why all the calls that Iraq is the president‘s Vietnam? We‘re going to be asking the man who leaked the Pentagon Papers coming up.

And new developments today in the Iraqi prisoner abuse story, as politics rears its ugly head. Senator Trent Lott and General Barry McCaffrey are going to enter SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY with their take on the growing controversy.

ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

Is John Kerry fit to be commander in chief? It‘s time for tonight‘s “Real Deal.”

You know, a group of veterans who served with John Kerry in Vietnam say the former war hero is not fit to be commander in chief. Veteran groups have been angry with Kerry since he testified before Congress more than 30 years ago and claimed that American soldiers in Vietnam were war criminals. Now, he specifically accused American G.I.s of committing unspeakable atrocities and then admitted to committing war crimes himself.

Now, standing alone, Kerry‘s postwar words could disqualify him from being president of the United States. But there are also a group of veterans who worked alongside John Kerry in that war and saw in the future senator a war hero who fought bravely under fire and risked his own life to save the lives of others.

Now, as someone who‘s never served in the military, has never seen enemy fire and who has never turned his boat directly toward incoming fire to save the life of a shipmate, I‘m going to be the last one to say that John Kerry is unfit to lead our country and our troops. But there are others who served in Vietnam who are making those claims. These vets just simply didn‘t appreciate being called war criminals by John Kerry in 1971, and they don‘t appreciate John Kerry standing by those claims today.

Now, the presumptive Democratic nominee‘s Vietnam record is so complex because John Kerry was as reckless with his words in 1971 as he was with his own personal safety in Vietnam risking his life to save his fellow troops. Expect this debate to continue for a long, long time. And that‘s tonight‘s “Real Deal.”

Here now we have John O‘Neill. He is a former swift boat captain and he‘s from Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth. He served with John Kerry‘s boat in Vietnam and is among those who say Senator Kerry is unfit to be president. We have Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy. She disagrees and backs the senator for his White House run. And “The Boston Globe”‘s Washington correspondent, Michael Kranish, is also here. And he co-wrote “John Kerry: The Complete Biography.”

Hey, let‘s begin with you, John O‘Neill. Obviously you and other swift boat captains today went out, held a press conference and said John Kerry was unfit to be commander and chief of the United States Army. Why?

We had a letter signed. It was signed by virtually every commanding officer that commanded John Kerry in Vietnam. It was signed by most of the officers who served directly with John Kerry in Coastal Division 11, by more than two-thirds of them, and more than 200 swifties from these swift boat units that we served in. We believe he‘s unfit to be commander in chief principally for two reasons.

First of all, he has wildly exaggerated his actual record in Vietnam, which is a much shorter one, four months, and a relatively minor one. Second, and most important to us, he accused our unit and troops in general in Vietnam of systematic war crimes. That was a knowing lie repeated recently in a campaign biography, “Tour of Duty,” which also has many misstatements in it.

SCARBOROUGH: Now, John O‘Neill, earlier, General Kennedy accused you tonight of partaking in dirty tricks for Richard Nixon and now saying basically you‘re in charge of the dirty tricks campaign for George Bush. How do you respond to that?

O‘NEILL: Well, I debated John Kerry in 1971, and before doing that I did in fact meet with President Nixon. The first thing I told him was that I was a Democrat and I voted for Hubert Humphrey.

I also met with many Democratic senators. John Kerry was meeting at that time, almost the same time, with Madame Binh, but I‘ve never accused him of being controlled by Madame Binh. Beyond that, it isn‘t me. The problem John Kerry‘s got is that 100 -- or now 200 and some swift people have signed this. There wasn‘t some conspiracy to put all Republicans or all Democrats in Coastal Division 11 back in 1969.

The rejection of him is overwhelming by the people who actually served with him. They are of all political parties. None of them would get involved with this on a partisan basis. We would have loved to have backed somebody from our unit.

SCARBOROUGH: Now, General Kennedy, you have said earlier tonight that you agreed with somebody that these actions of John O‘Neill and others were despicable and you said that he ran the dirty tricks campaign for Richard Nixon in 1971 and now he‘s doing it again for George Bush. Explain.

John O‘Neill has a long history of being extremely negative about John Kerry. And I can‘t help but think that this entire matter is just so totally political that there‘s absolutely no truth in some of the words John O‘Neill has used about John Kerry. John Kerry is a courageous combat leader who went into hostile fire, saved a man‘s life who had fallen overboard, went back to get him and retrieve him.

He went to war when others, like George Bush, Cheney, Karl Rove, did not. And, yet, this smear campaign being put on by the Republicans is just, in my view, unconscionable.

SCARBOROUGH: General Kennedy, do you think all these swift boat captains, though, who have signed this letter are basically tools of the Republican Party?

KENNEDY: You know, I don‘t know who they are and I don‘t know what their record is. But I know that about a month ago I stood in a group of about 20 people who had served with John Kerry in Vietnam, the enlisted soldiers—sailors, that is, the sailors.

And they are devoted to him, and they believe in him. They trust him. We all have the greatest respect for John Kerry. I think the real issue here is, is this sort of a wag the medals kind of a thing that the Republicans are pulling at a time when there‘s a lot of question about what‘s going on in Iraq today?

I mean, isn‘t this a little bit old news? Vietnam is long past. We should be talking about the war in Iraq.

SCARBOROUGH: Michael Kranish, the general brought up a very interesting point. She had said that it was interesting that a lot of the enlisted men that served under John Kerry actually are supporting his campaign—in fact, most of them are—while it seems that almost everybody that was above him in the chain of command are against his effort. Why is that?

MICHAEL KRANISH, AUTHOR, “JOHN KERRY: THE COMPLETE BIOGRAPHY”: Well, I think it‘s a—you know, you have people who are certainly supporting their skipper, John Kerry.

SCARBOROUGH: As far as numbers go—I‘m sorry—what, is that like seven out of eight people that you spoke with support him?

KRANISH: I count about—some people served with Kerry under his command for only a day or a week. So I count about maybe 15 or so men who at various times in those 4 ½ months actually served under his command, and all but one of those—and I‘ve talked to, I think, every one of these gentlemen—have said they‘re supportive of what Kerry did in Vietnam. There‘s one exception.

As far as the commanders, there are a number of people who are commanding officers. You can count it different ways. But there are certainly layers. There‘s a direct commanding officer, then a person in the middle, then sources on top.

The person on top of the commanding officers is a gentleman, a legendary gentleman named Roy Hoffman. And Roy Hoffman was someone who, under the command of Admiral Zumwalt at that time, put forward a policy of being extremely aggressive, wanted the sailors to go into these narrow rivers and canals and seek out the enemy, whereas, just prior to Kerry‘s arrival, the policy was, just go off in relatively safe patrols on the coast.

And there was some controversy about this, but Kerry did engage in some very aggressive actions, but he had concerns about the free fire zone policy as a result. And when he came back after serving in Vietnam, he criticized the policy of firing on anyone who violated a curfew zone.

KRANISH: And of course, these commanders were the ones who were enforcing that policy, so they felt and some feel today obviously that Kerry was criticizing them directly when he talked about war criminals and atrocities.

SCARBOROUGH: And, Pat Buchanan, that‘s exactly what John Kerry talked about on “Meet the Press” in 1971. Kerry was asked if he personally committed war crimes, and here was his answer.

I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare.

SCARBOROUGH: And, of course, he went on, even though he said he was a little too aggressive in those statements, he stood by them when he was asked by Tim Russert on “Meet the Press.”

Do you think this is the crux of the problem that veterans have with him, that he said he committed war crimes and he also accused other veterans of committing war crimes in 1971? Is that why they still haven‘t forgiven him?

PAT BUCHANAN, NBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I was in the White House at the time.

· Kerry had come back. He was a decorated soldier at that time. And he was leader of a small minority, VVAW.

I thought he was deliberately giving aid and comfort to the enemy by accusing the American soldiers we were bringing home from Vietnam of war crimes and atrocities. We thought it was a lie. We thought it was an outrageous lie. And we got John O‘Neill, who was a decorated officer himself, and he debated Kerry. And I think we had every right to do that. And Richard Nixon had every right to do that.

And Kerry‘s problem for me is that behavior after the war and the accusations that were false and that were outrageous and libelous and undercut our war effort that he made against the friends, the fellows he had left back there.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, Pat, stick around with us, because we‘re going to keep talking about this.

And this story is just not going away. Will John Kerry‘s post-Vietnam record ultimately prove that he‘s not fit to be president? We‘ll also have the man who leaked the Pentagon Papers. He easily draws parallels between Iraq and Vietnam and says the Iraq war isn‘t justified and that it was started by a lie. We‘ll have that debate straight ahead.

Plus, Big Brother is watching. You‘re going to be surprised to hear how ordering a pizza could get you in big trouble.

SCARBOROUGH: A group of Vietnam veterans say John Kerry is unfit to be president of the United States. We have the leader of that group. We‘ll continue this debate and much more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.

RET. REAR ADMIRAL ROY HOFFMAN, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be the commander and chief of the United States armed forces. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty, and trust.

SCARBOROUGH: That was retired Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, who served with John Kerry and who also signed the anti-Kerry letter today.

Senator Kerry served with distinction in Vietnam, but he also called his comrades war criminals. So is he fit to be America‘s commander in chief?

Now, you debated John Kerry in a legendary debate on “The Dick Cavett Show.” And you demanded in 1971 that John Kerry sign an affidavit to prove that war crimes were committed by American troops. Did he ever sign that affidavit then or have you seen anything from 1971 to today that convinces you that he was correct, that America‘s soldiers in Vietnam did commit war crimes?

O‘NEILL: Joe, I never did. Admiral Hoffman, whom you showed, is the leader of our group. I‘m simply a spokesman for the group.

John Kerry published a book. It‘s called “The New Soldier.” It‘s his book, General. I didn‘t author it. John Kerry authored it. It‘s a book. There‘s the typical kind of picture in the book. It‘s a book in which he accuses all of us in Vietnam of war crimes over and over. The people in the book, many of them whose stories are cited, were never even in Vietnam. Many of them are completely faked, the book. It‘s a book he hopes people don‘t read.

To respond briefly, in 1971, I did debate him. After 1975, I had no involvement in politics. Almost every opponent he ever had asked me for my help. I would never get involved. The only reason I‘ve gotten involved now is because the position he‘s running for, commander in chief, is one that goes to the absolute heart of the military forces. My family‘s been involved in the United States Navy for almost a century. My dad was an admiral. My grandfather taught there. My brothers and uncles all went to the Naval Academy, as did I.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, General Kennedy, let me bring you back in here. And I want to talk again about these war crime claims. Obviously, they‘re 30 years old right now. But it still seems to be at the heart of the problem. We‘ve heard all this stuff about Purple Hearts and whether he deserved one of them or not. I think that‘s a sideshow.

What seems to really strike at the heart of the American soldier and sailors is the fact this is a guy that wants to be commander in chief and yet he‘s accused Americans of war crimes. Can you understand that concern?

KENNEDY: Well, I can understand the concern, and I think it‘s just amazing that this is being brought up about someone who served with distinction, served at a time when there were other choices, when other choices were made by George Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

SCARBOROUGH: General, as you heard at the top of the show, I agree with you. He was a war hero.

What I‘m saying, though, is they‘re not concerned about really what happened in Vietnam. It‘s when he came back home. Do you think John Kerry needs to come out and maybe be a bit more forceful, saying, you know, I know I said they committed war crimes, but I take that back? He didn‘t do that on “Meet the Press.” Do you think he needs to take another swing at that issue?

KENNEDY: Well, I don‘t think it would hurt to discuss it. But the problem is, it takes away from the discussion about matters that are far more relevant to Americans today, such as jobs, health care, the economy, and the current war we have going on right now.

SCARBOROUGH: General, I agree with you on that point, too. But, again, it‘s become a distraction for John Kerry. And wouldn‘t it be much easier if he just came out and said, you know what? I shouldn‘t have said that in ‘71. That was false. I got caught up in the emotion. I made a mistake. Now let‘s talk about the issues that are really important to Americans, the ones you just mentioned.

KENNEDY: Joe, I‘m just not so sure that he made a mistake saying what he did. Look, here‘s how the climate was in April of 1971, when he gave his testimony.

At that point, 44,000 Americans had died in Vietnam. Now, we‘re concerned about almost 800 in the year we‘ve been in Iraq. Can you imagine the feeling in 1971 that 44,000 people at that point had died?

SCARBOROUGH: Sure, but you think he committed—do you think he was correct in saying that American soldiers and sailors committed war crimes?

KENNEDY: You know, the way he put that, it sounded like to me he was using a broad brush to describe a lot of activities as war crimes, that, if I were really taking a hard look, I‘m not sure all of those particular activities would be war crimes.

It‘s not so much what the mission is that makes it a war crime. It‘s what your action is in pursuit of that mission that would make it a war crime. To say that a search-and-destroy mission in and of itself is a war crime, I think, paints too broad a definition of what is a war crime. But I think you‘re going to hear more about that. Now, I think that way too much is being made of this. And the Republicans are conducting a smear campaign against an honorable, trustworthy, very reliable war hero.

SCARBOROUGH: Pat Buchanan, I want to play you first the Kerry campaign‘s latest commercial that they rolled out. Take a look at this.

NARRATOR: He was born in an Army hospital in Colorado. His father was an Army Air Corps pilot, his mother a community leader. He went to college at Yale and volunteered to serve in Vietnam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine.

NARRATOR: In combat, he earned the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts. Then he came home determined to end that war. For more than 30 years, John Kerry has served America.

SCARBOROUGH: Pat Buchanan, I think it‘s a great commercial. I wouldn‘t have shown him wearing a Yale shirt.

SCARBOROUGH: But, you know, don‘t you think, though, John Kerry‘s message is going to remain muddled until he takes the opportunity that Tim Russert gave him on “Meet the Press” to distance himself from those comments in 1971, where he said American soldiers committed barbaric acts and actually step forward and get it behind him?

BUCHANAN: Joe, I‘ll tell you, Kerry has a right to, and he‘s making his service in Vietnam and when he came home—quote—“to end the war,” he‘s making this the centerpiece of the fact that John Kerry as a young man was a man character who can lead this country.

But the key testimony is not on “Meet the Press.” It‘s before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, when he was talking about the most lurid atrocities you can imagine.

BUCHANAN: He slandered those 44,000 that the general said were dead in Vietnam. He slandered all the men who were still there, who we were trying to bring home. Even during this campaign he‘s been yelling about Nixon‘s war.

We inherited a war with 535,000 guys in Vietnam when Johnson went home. And so what he said then, and to—I think the man ought to stand up and say: I was wrong. I was radical. I said some horrible, stupid, false things and I apologize to all those men who take offense. And I apologize to the country for having done it.

I think he would be a bigger man for doing that. It is that point, what he said, I think, that so outrages a lot of us. And whether he‘s fit to be president is really for the American people to decide, not his opponents or his friends.

SCARBOROUGH: Michael Kranish, we only have a few seconds left. But you‘ve studied John Kerry. How does this issue always play out in his campaigns, in his Senate campaigns in the past?

KRANISH: Well, first of all, in two races he ran for the House, first in 1970, before he testified in the Senate, and then in 1972, he ran pretty much as an anti-war candidate. He did not become the nominee of the party in ‘70, and he was the nominee in ‘72. And he lost, despite running in a working class district. So his life experience might tell him that it‘s tough to run and win just as an anti-war candidate.

Running for the Senate, he ran much more as the war hero, was surrounded by some of his crewmates and in fact by a couple of the commanders who appeared today. They stood by his side in 1996 supporting him, backing him when questions were risen about a certain action that he took.

But now as running for basically commander in chief, they say this is a different matter. So, in the Senate campaigns, it was helpful running basically on the war hero. Now you see both of these combining. He‘s running, obviously, with the war hero and the anti-war hero. And those two clash sometimes. That‘s what we saw surface today.

Thanks for being with us. We appreciate it, John O‘Neill, Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy, and Michael Kranish.

More background info on Madame Binh, from FR's wintersoldier.com: Kerry in Paris.

Excerpt: The Madame Binh whom Kerry references and whose "Points" he recommends was not "a leader" of "a communist group in South Vietnam." Madame Nguyen Thi Binh was the Foreign Minister of the PRG, which was the political wing of the only communist movement in South Vietnam, whose military apparatus was called, by the U.S., the Viet Cong. In both its political and military manifestations, this group was merely another operational aspect of the North Vietnamese communist regime and army.

[General Kennedy] I mean, isn‘t this a little bit old news? Vietnam is long past. We should be talking about the war in Iraq.

But somehow, General, your man, Monsieur le Ketchup, keeps bringing Vietnam up. In fact, not soon after you made this inane statement, Scarborough played the latest campaign commercial in which Vietnam is the centerpiece. It doesn't seem like Kerry and company got the old news memo.

Ok General, it is just the most horrid thing to dare criticize John F. Kerry since he is a decorated Vietnam veteran, but is is just fine to criticize Mr. O'Neil who is a decorated Vietnam veteran.

Well what do you know, it appears that not all decorated Vietnam Vets are created equally.

{{Well, I don‘t think it would hurt to discuss it. But the problem is, it takes away from the discussion about matters that are far more relevant to Americans today, such as jobs, health care, the economy, and the current war we have going on right now.}}

Looks to be the Texas two-step here by the Lt. General. A wee bit of ol' Clinton, she must be drinking from the same well.

About: U.S. Army General Claudia Kennedy

Source -- www.historyswomen.com

After she had announced her retirement plans, Claudia made a sexual harassment complaint against a two-star general, Maj. Gen. Larry Smith. Claudia charged that Smith had touched her in a sexual manner and tried to kiss her in her Pentagon office in 1996, when they both wore two stars. Although Claudia did not report Smith's actions to her superiors at the time, she raised the matter internally after the Army announced that Smith was to become the Army's Deputy Inspector General. In that post, he would have overseen investigations of cases of sexual harassment. Claudia's charges became public in March 2000, and once they were substantiated, the Army quietly rescinded Smith's assignment.

At her Pentagon retirement ceremony, Claudia did not mention the case or General Smith. Instead she focused on the increasing opportunities available to women in the U.S. military: "The Army asks 'Be all you can be.' Today I can honestly tell you that I have been all that I could be. I have risen farther than I ever dared to hope." Claudia was born on July 14, 1947.

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