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Fallujah Surrender Thread
4-30-04 | Nicollo

Posted on 04/30/2004 6:48:02 AM PDT by nicollo

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TOPICS: Announcements; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: etc; fallujah; intestinedeprived; losers; propaganda; surrendermonkeys; theblind; thepanicked; whiners
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To: nicollo
So, what's the strategy when we are asked to leave in January by the sovereign, elected government of Iraq?
81 posted on 05/04/2004 6:33:02 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: nicollo
The most revealing and least discussed moment in Condi Rice's public interview with the 9-11 Commission was when she talked about the large steps taken prior to September to change Pakistan before going after the Taliban. The Administration had it right from the beginning

We did a pretty good job with the Taliban. I would like to have asked Condi why we let Osama slip away in Tora Bora.

82 posted on 05/04/2004 6:36:33 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: elfman2
If the deal is as early reported, I doubt it. This is too political and far reaching

How do we know that what is 'reported' is what is exactly happening?

83 posted on 05/04/2004 6:39:49 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: dead
Hmmmmm. Good point. In the mean time every terrorist within 1000 km is probably headed to to the safe harbor/staging area of Foolyouja...
84 posted on 05/04/2004 6:44:19 AM PDT by null and void (Sarcasm, just another service I provide.)
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To: Johnny Gage
LOL. Good contrast.
85 posted on 05/04/2004 6:54:18 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: nicollo
Thanks for the compliment for the Foxhole.

Compared to some other battles in our history Fallujah could be considered good news. I know it's frustrating to see what's going on and at times I wish we'd just flatten the place, partly because the news coverage we're bombarded with makes the situation seem worse than it is on the ground there. We're also fighting a different kind of enemy, ones that I don't see ever just quitting and going home peacefully no matter how bad we defeat them.

I more worried about the political will to win rather than whether our military can win. I know our military can do what needs to be done, I don't trust our politicans to let them do it.

It screams my mind to think of all the times in American history we could have given up at some bad, or seemingly bad, news.

You are so correct, from Valley Forge to the Ashau Valley we have always kept the Faith in our final victory. I hope America hasn't changed so much that we have lost that ability.

86 posted on 05/04/2004 6:54:20 AM PDT by SAMWolf (For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened. Small stain.)
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To: Johnny Gage
LOL! Love that first picture.
87 posted on 05/04/2004 6:54:49 AM PDT by SAMWolf (For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened. Small stain.)
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To: nicollo
In a short two years, the United States of America has overturned, upset, kicked upside the head, sucker-punched, bitch-slapped and otherwise and totally re-defined the world.

Dang! Too long for a tag line.

Isn't as elegant edited to fit...

88 posted on 05/04/2004 6:56:33 AM PDT by null and void (Overturned, upset, kicked upside the head, sucker-punched, b-slapped and totally redefined the world)
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To: GraniteStateConservative
Going into the Spanish-American War, the U.S. Congress passed the "Teller Amendment," declaring that Cuba would be "free and independent." Basically, it forbade colonization of Cuba. After the war -- easily won there and in the Philippines, we set up a government, got out, then got back in a few years later when it fell apart.

That original Congressional promise of an independent Cuba was revised in 1901 with the Platt Amendment, which gave the U.S. control of Cuban foreign and fiscal policy and guaranteed the right of America to intervene in Cuban affairs. We forced it upon Cuba. (along with such little niceties as perpetual lease of Guantanamo Bay). Cuban self-government was set up starting in 1902. We were back in there in 1906, and on and off from there, give or take Fidel and JFK...

Did we "win" or "lose" that war and the peace and not-so-peace that followed?

History isn't so nice and clean as people want it here and in Fallujah.
89 posted on 05/04/2004 6:57:07 AM PDT by nicollo
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To: gonzo
Thanks Gonzo!

Just been flying under the radar until some personal issues work themselves out.

Keep on keeping it real!

Regards,

90 posted on 05/04/2004 6:59:54 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: SAMWolf
The American people make many, many mistakes, but are ultimately wise.

The ONLY American war that had almost no domestic opposition was WWII. Self-government is messy, indeed. As you say, the key to winning a war is political leadership. We've got it now, and we will after Nov. 2, I am certain.

America is a country where things turn out better than they ought to.
- British Ambassador James Bryce

God looks out for fools, drunks and the United States of America.
- anon. (attributed sometimes to Stephen Leacock, a 19th Century Canadian humorist)

91 posted on 05/04/2004 7:06:58 AM PDT by nicollo
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To: null and void
LOL!
92 posted on 05/04/2004 7:08:17 AM PDT by nicollo
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To: nicollo
That is great. Thanks for the ping. You are a real American, my friend. God bless you.
93 posted on 05/04/2004 7:08:51 AM PDT by old3030 ("Appearances are a glimpse of what is hidden." (Anaxagoras))
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To: nicollo
Please explain how our withdrawal from Fallujah is any different from Truman and Acheson preventing MacArthur from interdicting the flow of men and materiel from Manchuria into North Korea. How are these rules of engagement different from those that Johnson and McNamara imposed on American forces in Vietnam, preventing an effective interdiction of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, the bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong, and the invasion of North Vietnam? What are the dissimilarities from the situation in the Gulf War of 1991, when the elder Bush restrained Schwartzkopf from taking Baghdad?

There are too many "perfumed princes" in the Pentagon, "striped pants" elitists in the State Department, and self-important "experts" in the CIA and the think tanks such as the Hudson Institute and the Council on Foreign Relations who are hopelessly enamored of their own subtle strategies and clever initiatives. You would think a half century of failures of the "limited war" and "police action" strategies would have taught them that the old-fashioned "blood and guts" generals like MacArthur and Schwartzkopf were right in their demand for the use of unrestrained force. However, too many of our side's "psy-war" strategies in Iraq smell of the influence of our "experts": the playing of raucous music to induce attacks by the terrorists, the over-hyped humiliation of Iraqi detainees (an example of our policy elite trying to finesse a difference between torture and harassment), the use of former Ba'athist officials in the provisional Iraqi government.

I am for this war on terrorism. I have no use for either the liberal crybabies who ignore the far more terrible atrocities of Islamic extremists, as they used to do regarding the Communists, or the Buchananites and libertarians who believe we can place our collective head in the sand with regard to hostile nations and ideologies. However, there must be none of these "subtle stratagems," "clever initiatives," and "hearts and minds" nonsense that failed so miserably in South Vietnam. Let our armed forces do what they are best at: killing people and breaking things. Fallujah should be leveled and the surviving terrorists killed on the spot.

There is no substitute for victory.

94 posted on 05/04/2004 7:20:52 AM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: Wallace T.
No one is looking for subtlety here. This war is far, far larger than Fallujah, or Baghdad, or Iraq, and whether we level Fallujah or not makes no difference.

You've pointed to one or two mistakes of our political leaders during war. I could give you ten more, or more if I had more fingers. What's important here is our overall victory. We are winning. We have rocked the world in such a way that it has felt in a generation, and comparable to few others.

You've got to put up with a hell of a lot to be a citizen of this country. But that's also what makes us great.
95 posted on 05/04/2004 7:35:04 AM PDT by nicollo
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To: nicollo
After liberating Cuba from Spain, and setting a free Cuba, we had to send in the Marines less than ten years later to sort it out. And then we lost Cuba to a washed-up baseball player. Still, who'd say we lost the Spanish-American War? Folks can't tell the difference between battles and wars.

It seems that America has never lost a war nor won a peace then.

"After liberating Cuba from Spain" can be disputed. Most Cubans living at that time thought that America stole their thunder instead of liberating them for two reasons. First, Spain was extremely weak and about to lose the Cuban Independence War, therefore America needed not to sent troops to help Cubans; supplies would have been just fine.

The other reason that "liberating Cuba from Spain" was not quite welcome by the Cubans was the unnecessary American occupation, forcing Cubans to become a US protectorate per the Amendment Platt.

So if Cuba is your guide, Iraqis must be on their way to a hell of a history... colonialism, occupation, neocolonialism, civil war, corrupt regimes, brief periods of democracy, and finally 45 years of totalitarian rule.

I hope you had a better example in mind when you predicted a positive outcome for the Iraqi experiment.

96 posted on 05/04/2004 7:48:34 AM PDT by george wythe
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To: nicollo
Not leveling Fallujah is one big mistake. It is a rebel city that should have been demolished into ruins and the rebels now dancing in the streets should have been killed by our soldiers and Marines.

Our "shock and awe" tactics defeated the Iraqi military in 1991 and 2003. Dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki effectively ended Japanese hostilities. When the Romans finally defeated Carthage, their old enemy, they entirely leveled the city and plowed the ground around the city, planting salt so that nothing would ever grow again on that site.

Sean Connery, who played a Chicago policeman turned Federal agent in the movie, The Untouchables, had some lines in reference with dealing with Al Capone that would work with today's terrorists. "You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue!" That's the Chicago way, and the American way!

97 posted on 05/04/2004 8:25:44 AM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: nicollo
Thank you, darlin'. THank you so much. Needed that. And THAT is why I get all my information from Free Republic. It's all about attitude. God love you.
98 posted on 05/04/2004 11:16:47 AM PDT by vandykelastone (I'm so glad Goober Pyle is the Governor of New Mexico, aren't you?)
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To: hchutch
Brutal sendup of the FR armchair commando brigade...
99 posted on 05/04/2004 11:17:59 AM PDT by Poohbah (Darkdrake Lives!)
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To: nicollo
Great rant. Much needed...
100 posted on 05/04/2004 11:52:02 AM PDT by eureka! (Note to Terry McAuliffe- Thanks for the early primaries!!!!!!)
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