Posted on 04/28/2004 12:01:04 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
Of course Jesus was framed with a charge of plotting against the government. That was the only charge the Romans would care about; they didn't care that he might have claimed to be God's son. It also was a believable charge to them, since they had several previous zealot insurrectionists already on a cross.
My point is that the charge wasn't true.
Yes, Chrsitians need to be good citizens and vote etc. That is why I am on this board.
Of course, civilizations require laws and government. But keep in mind they require laws and government precisely because they are East of Eden. God has little interest in helping us get our governments right.
I agree that -- not a little -- a LOT of social reform takes place when hearts are won. But social reform is not the object.
"Heroes of the faith" are different after Jesus than before Jesus. Before Him, they are members of a nation who legitimately consider earthly theocracy the norm; after Jesus, God's attention has shifted. Clear as a bell.
Thanks again for your interest in this neglected issue.
I have to register a note of disagreement here. Mainly, because many of the heroes of the faith who were in government, served in pagan states which certainly were not Jewish theocracies. Joseph was prime minister of Egypt, Daniel served the Babylonians, Queen Esther was queen of Persia. And in serving these ungodly governments is where they had the best influence. (In fact the kings of the Israelite theocracy were mostly a bunch of backsliding screwba'als by comparison!)
This pattern continues after Christ. I could cite a lot of examples, but one will suffice: William Wilberforce, the devout Christian parlimentarian in Britain. His contribution to history: leading the charge to outlaw slavery in the British Empire. Surely such a man would have merited mention in the Scripture if he had done his work before the time that it was written.
So I'm convinced that God cares intensely about government. I just don't see the "clear as a bell" shift that you claim you see.
Of course, government is certainly not His FIRST priority, but, that doesn't mean it has dropped off his list.
Won't we end up just picking those figures which reflect the view of NT we already had before we started picking?
No, the text of the Gospels is what we have. And what we have there is a personality who is CLEARLY different in style and focus from the OT figures you cite. Joseph, Esther, Daniel -- none of them would have said "My kingdom is not of this world". But Jesus did, and you expect Him to change this like He changed everything He commented on, because of Who He Is.
If we don't use the gospel texts to form an attitude to politics, can we just hew the prophets of Baal with the sword (like the prophet did) and be done with it? Why not? He was a "hero of the faith", wasn't he?
By their fruits shall ye know them. That's the NT standard.
" Joseph, Esther, Daniel -- none of them would have said "My kingdom is not of this world". "
True, but it does not logically follow that we are now to sit back and allow worldly kingdoms to fall apart -- that's bad stewardship. And no, Elijah isn't supposed to slay the prophets of Baal - the Israelite theocracy has been superceded. But since the NT clearly tells us that goverment officials are "ministers of God" to keep public order, and that we should pray for them in order to live a quiet and peacable life, God clearly still cares about government, even though it's not the theocracy of the Judges.
I'm not sure why we're arguing. If you mean that individual salvation is a much higher priority in God's view, than government (or anything else), then, we already agree. (BTW, that was also true in OT times, not just in this "age").
We can either ignore government altogether, or, we can regard government as a secondary matter with which we must, sometimes, concern ourselves with. Obviously I take the second view. But since you admit that Christians should be good citizens, vote, etc, then how exactly do you differ from me?
We could really improve society, and worship molech!
No, wait! We already do that. Open your "Yellow Pages", you'll find plenty of his temples advertised in the first few "A" pages...
With all due respect, I believe the overall intent of his post was to demonstrate that, since politics envolves people, money and power, those people, no matter what faith they adhere to, will become (or have a great chance to become) corrupt, greedy, and tyrannical without accountability from the people they serve. At least thats what I got out of it. Christian, Muslim, or Jew...all have the capacity for evil.
I had it put to me another way:
Salvation is the transformation of knowing about God...to knowing God.
Good post. Perhaps this is one of main problems as to why Christians our losing America. Is being a Christian a one time prayer that assures me of my salvation? If so, (and most of your very large and influential fundementalist circles adhere to this as their "altar call" moment) then it is a cheap salvation and a cheap Christianity, it will and won't have any lasting effect. IMHO...(and OK I am biased here because I am a revert Catholic) "knowing one is saved" just does not cut it. If we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling how can we know we will get to heaven? Its not a cheap ticket...its a lifelong struggle of doing God's will, of living a life more like Jesus. Cheap and ingenuine Christianity produces cheap and ingenuine Christians...and ones who don't practice Christianity in their own life.
Another point in Christianity's decline comes with the notion of moral standards. And, also IMHO...at least in the U.S., it started with the mainstream acceptance of birth control (sexual pleausre w/o responsibility or self control and playing God with God's soverignty), which led to the degradiation of all newborn life (abortion), and further degraded to the total perversion of the sex act itself (homosexuality and other perversions); all which degrade society and the family unit as a whole. If these are our moral standards and this is salvation...its no wonder that we are losing America.
I, however saw the post as a slam on Christianity and I've about had it with that talking point nowadays. I hear enough of it from Hollywood and Madison Avenue and don't particularly have patience for it I used to.
We have a local chapter of NYCF, the only Christian lobbying organization in NY State. We're very small, but we have four pastors and four members who have run for political office. Some Christian friends have tried to tell us that our focus is wrong, that we are commanded to submit to those in authority, and that, being in the Lord's hands, our efforts will likely have a negligible effect.
Your article was truly an encouragement.
Any and all prayers for His blessings upon our efforts would be greatly appreciated!
~The Mayor's Wife
But if a Christian is elected to office, s/he IS the authority. In fact, as voting citizens each of us already has a certain share of governing authority -- a stewardship for which God will hold us accountable.
You might want to make this point to them.
~The Mayor's Wife
From what I heard on the radio the other day, the difference is that many non-Christians simply shack up, while more Christians marry.
I watched a very inspiring yet troubling sermon from Dr. Alan Keyes yesterday, given to students at Liberty Bible College. His answer to the above query was (parphrasing, sorry Alan), 'because in the end times, Christians will be reviled in their own lands' and the message was delivered by the Lord 2000 years ago! Seeing the turn toward reviling us is strong evidence that the end of times for this 'dispensation' are at hand. Those who call themselves Christians are compromising in every direction, rather than stand up for what God says and condemn that which God condemns. The stage is surely set, trim therefore your lamps ...
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