DUBYA'S WING MEN (in case you missed it, he volunteered for Vietnam)

National Review Online ^ | 2-19-04 | Jed Babbin

[lowbridge]

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[Kozak]

Vietnam-era deployment

Though essentially useless in the small-war role, F-102s were indeed deployed to South Vietnam. Aircraft from the 590th Fighter Interceptor Squadron were transferred to Tan Son Nhut AFB near Saigon in March 1962 to provide air defense against the unlikely event that North Vietnamese aircraft would attack the South. F-102As continued to be based there and in Thailand throughout much of the war. F-102As also stood alert at Bien Hoa and Da Nang in South Vietnam and at Udorn and Don Muang in Thailand. The F-102A was finally withdrawn from Southeast Asia in December of 1969.
A few missions were flown over North Vietnam, but the Southeast Asia-stationed F-102As are not thought to have actually engaged in air-to-air combat. However, Joe Baugher cites an F-102A of the 509th FIS being lost to an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-21 while flying a CAP over Route Package IV on February 3, 1968. Two F-102As were lost to AAA or small-arms fire, four were destroyed on the ground by the Viet Cong, and eight were lost in operational accidents.

The F-102A even flew some close-support missions over South Vietnam, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut. Operating under the code-name "Project Stovepipe," the F-102s used their heat sinking Falcon missiles to lock onto heat sources over the Ho Chi Minh trail at night, often Viet Cong campfires. They would even fire their radar-guided missiles if their radars managed to lock onto something.

The F-102s soon switched to a day role, firing unguided FFAR rockets using the optical sight; 618 day sorties were flown, the last one at the end of 1965. One F-102A was downed by ground fire during one of these rocket attacks. There were some later missions flown, especially in emergencies when the 102's were the fastest response available in South Vietnam. Some TF-102A two-seaters were also used on occasion in Vietnam as forward air controllers.

[Based on material in the USAF Museum website and on Joe Baugher's homepage.]



Sounds like the AF was trying to make some use of the asset they had. Not perfect but better then nothing. All kinds of material that wasn't exactly designed for a small war in the jungle had to be pressed into service. I bet the Marines had a few examples of that too.

Look, Bush joined the Texas ANG. So he wasn't Eisenhower, it was an HONORABLE way to serve. It's not HIS fault the Texas ANG got stuck with a dog. F-4's weren't going to the guard for another decade or two. He did more then the average bear in the guard too, flying in the military in any capacity is challenging and dangerous. He was probably in more danger then many a clerk or cook who did a full tour in Vietnam, where their major danger was picking up a dose of the clap.

Kerry and Bush both served. BUT Kerry, clearly did more harm to US interests AFTER his service then his 4 months in Vietnam could possibly have helped, unless he was Admiral Nelson.

His Senate record is one of voting to deprive US forces of the very weapons that make them so effective. His attacks on intelligence helped to blind us and leave us vulnerable to the Islamo facists. If his Intelligence bill had passed it would be even worse.

[USMCVet]

Absolutely fascinating. I had no idea that the Air Force used the F-102 for anything at all in Vietnam, much less hundreds of sorties! I lived just southwest of Danang for extended periods circa 1966-67 and saw a lot of unlikely aircraft used in unlikely roles, but I never saw a single F-102. Talk about pounding a delta-winged peg into a round hole! It gives an aura of desperation to the whole affair, doesn't it?

Clearly, I owe a salute to the 102 drivers that tried hard to do something with a totally unsuitable bird!

The problem I've got is that George, among many hundreds of thousands of others of our young men, picked a course other than to serve in our war. War is a miserable thing, but occasionally necessary and when a country calls, its young men (and lately young women) should answer. Those of us that did go and endured what we did, did it while many of our country stayed home and enjoyed life (and sometimes enjoyed the young ladies we left behind - there was a strong uptick in "Dear John letters" throughout that war.) Yes, the war was different for nearly everybody that went and some billets, maybe most billets, weren't the infantry (and God help you if you were a grunt in Vietnam: I never met one that hadn't been wounded at least once). Yet you could die and die quickly anywhere you were. The VC made a point of being everywhere and striking anywhere. I used to watch the 122mm rockets light up one horizon and arc across the sky to hit the airfield or the ammo dump or the fuel farm on the other horizon in Danang. You are wrong about the cooks and the drivers and the clerks in Vietnam. Lots of them were killed (a friend of mine was a clerk in a convoy between Danang and Phu Bai that was hit by a battalion-sized ambush. He led a small part of the counterattack and was shot through the midsection and nearly died.) The key thing is that all of knew that they could be killed and they were there with us anyway.

You know what we ran into when we came back, so I won't elaborate (the icing on the cake was blowhard Kerry - a sailor on a riverine craft - telling the world that we were atrocity-committing murdering rapists. Like he spent any time in the bush with the grunts and had any way of knowing how well we did. Thanks a whole lot John!) but I can't help but believe that if every able-bodied American man had volunteered, Vietnam would be free today and we would be prouder of ourselves as a nation. Maybe the Cold War would have ended even earlier and many other confrontations could have been avoided. Nobody could've driven a wedge between the fighting men and their country, not the pro-communist Left, not the weasels that hid out in other countries, not Hanoi Jane nor the hostile press. We could've been one solid entity to confront the enemy's "National Liberation War" and a force to be reckoned with.

But it didn't work out that way - the rich and the privileged and the sneaky opted out and left the job to "other people's kids".

We really didn't need F-102 drivers in Texas. We needed to have George over there with us - I'd have been a lot prouder of him if we HAD been a cook in Bien Hoa. He would have one of us.

[ninonitti]

For the record, it was his mother's Oldsmobile and he ballasted it with Mary-Jo.

[GBA]

Thanks for your reply and your research. Geez...I can't imagine using an F-102 for close air support. That would take a combination of desperation and guts!

I think you're right about the danger aspect regarding Bush's flying. There are many ways to kill yourself in the military, but flying fighters, especially the century series aircraft, is a quick and efficient way to do it.

Seriously, you can't be stupid and survive the Darwin cleansing of the gene pool that is part and parcel with flying fighters. Flying an F-102 may not have been as demanding as landing on a carrier at night in bad weather, but it's still impressive.

[Kozak]

Most of the "intellectuals" who smirk at W's lack of intelligence couldn't figure out how to close the canopy on a fighter, and would soil themselves if they had to try and fly one.

Strange things are done in aviation. The Germans turned the F 104 Starfighter into a ground attack aircraft, something even less suited for that roll then the F 102. It earned itself the nickname of "Witenmacher" the widow maker.

Sorry for being snippy in my original post, I was up all night at work ( here I am again ) and got a little short.

[Spotsy]

If I wanted to escape the dangers of combat in Vietnam, I sure as heck wouldn't do it in the cockpit of a jet.

Ask Don Rumsfeld how safe it is in the cockpit, thousands of miles away from the combat zone. He and his wife attended quite a few funerals for buddies when he was serving in the "safe zone."

Dubya has the brains and guts required of a jet jockey. No need for inflation - he served honorably and courageously.

[Spotsy]

Most of the "intellectuals" who smirk at W's lack of intelligence couldn't figure out how to close the canopy on a fighter, and would soil themselves if they had to try and fly one.

Well said!

[USMCVet]

Right. Now add being a jet jockey with radar-guided AAA, SA-2s, a 2 million enemy troops directly under you, firing upward and just waiting to play with you when you eject.

I return to my core objection to the original article that started this thread; flying a jet is impressive but not to be compared with the pure, distilled guts it took to fly that jet where we actually needed it in Vietnam. George and his coterie need to focus on his record as a President and his plan for our future, not on his avoidance of a war that involved all of the good young men of our generation.

Let's not even talk about "I had better things to do" Cheney: people that avoid serving their country during a war with such elan should never hold any government office at all. It's a "guts test" and he failed.

[GBA]

I'm not aware that the Bush camp is pushing his time in the Guard. The only group that is bringing Bush's service record (as well as Cheney's lack of one) up are the Kerry camp, the DNC and the rest of the Democrat mob commonly known as "the media". You seem to be able to respect only one level of military service: actual combat. Same for courage. From reading your posts, nothing less that actual bullets flying at you is courageous enough. Anything "less" seems to be unworthy of your time. Is true of your vote as well?

The point of this thread, to me at least, seems to be to refute the notion that Bush wasn't AWOL, and not that his level of service meets with your approval. You can belittle him if you like with your "my service was tougher than his" attitude, but from where I sit it just makes you look jaded. I thank you for your service to our country and I'm sorry you didn't get the respect you deserved when you came back home, but I hope that you can some day get over it.

It seems to me that Bush puts himself on the line each and every day with the political decisions he makes. He doesn't stick his finger in the air to see if he has the right opinion and then do a poll to see what tie to wear like the last guy, a draft dodging molly coddled bed wetter, philanderer.

[USMCVet]

The whole point of the article that forms the core of this post is that GWB's service in the Texas National Guard is equivalent to service in combat in Vietnam. It wasn't and isn't now.

Whether you are aware of it or not, our country split into two halves nearly 40 years ago - those that served in that war and those that didn't. Those that didn't went on with their lives without a ripple - no sacrifice, no losses, no discomfort. School kids focused on football games and fraternities and beer. Young men went out and started making a living. The sun shone and the birds sang for them.

On the other side of the world, the other young men sweated and bled and did without. A constant river of wounded flowed through the hospital networks, hundreds of thousands whose lives were permanently changed, invisible to the rest of this country. The dead came home in aluminum cans for furtive and usually perfunctory ceremonies to be buried and mourned by their families.

See any disparity here? Any difference in levels of patriotism and commitment?

Is George Bush a better President than the slime that preceded him? Of course. But do I equate his service during the Vietnam War with the guys that took their chances for their country? No. Never.

As far as "getting over it" goes - should I? Those names on that wall in Washington were good people - better than almost all of those that so energetically want to lead us. They were friends of mine.

[Spotsy]

With all due respect for a Marine, of course you can always point to circumstances more dangerous. There is always someone who had it tougher and risked more, but that isn't a legitimate basis on which to diminish Bush's record.

Being a fly boy isn't easy.

Bush's "Coterie?" - I prefer to leave the class warfare to the Dems.

Bush didn't raise the issue of service. Mr. Kerry did. He wanted to base his entire campaign on being a decorated war hero, thinking this would overcome his "Genghis Khan" protest and a weak voting record on defense/intelligence.

[USMCVet]

"With all due respect for a Marine"

One of my favorite opening sentences...usually denotes anything but respect...

"Bush didn't raise the issue of service"

Probably not, but the article that started this thread certainly did and it's aimed at establishing some equivalence with George's TANG flying record to combat, with the gentle whiff that he had actually volunteered for Vietnam. You and I both know that is being done to support GWB.

Bottom line: combat is combat. If you're a pilot, it includes the normal dangers of military flight and adds somebody actively trying to kill you. Way more impressive than just flying a year or so in Texas, if you follow my drift. We had a war on and whether one was a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine, I salute your valor, honor and patriotism. If you failed to sign on for our country's war and hung back - I don't admire you as much...it's not calculus, OK?

[Spotsy]

I'll reserve my respect for those open to it.

[USMCVet]

See - I DID interpret your remark correctly!

I have all the respect I need from people that count to me, thank you.

Semper Fi

[Spotsy]

No, I rescinded my sincere offer of respect.

[USMCVet]

Well, I guess I'm crushed, Spots.

Have a nice day

[Busywhiskers]

What tick me off is the disparagement of military reservist that is implied in what the critics are saying about the Pres. As someone pointed out on the radio the other day, there are names of over 6,500 reservist on the wall at the Viet Nam memorial in DC.

[AmusedBystander]

I admire the medevac pilots that flew to us no matter what to get the wounded out.

Do you also admire people like my cousin who joined the Navy to avoid the draft? Would it help to know that he became a corpsman in the Navy? Would it help to know that he had no idea that all of the Marines fighting in Viet Nam relied on Navy corpsmen? Would it help to know that when he did find out, he served in Viet Nam for two weeks shy of six months when he was severely wounded by a mine himself while coming to the aid of an injured Marine?

Many end up in unexpected places, even during wars. There were plenty of good men during that era who served in Korea, Germany, etc. prepared to fight off the Russians, but were never ordered to Viet Nam.

[Spotsy]

Courage and Honor are nothing without an abundance of Humility.

Cheers,

Spotsy