'Descendents Of Dragon' Confirmed At Laiohe River Valley

Just off the top of my head, Beouwolf..Merlin. King Arthur's dad was named Pendragon. Notice how dragons frequently have fire coming out their mouths? (comet imagery?)

Building on the Beowulf reference, dragons appear in Norse and German mythology, too. The Germans ranged pretty far east towards Hun territory, and the Huns originated in western China during the Han period (A tribe known as the Xiongnu existed in western China at the time of the Han Dynasty (the last two centuries BC). They divided into two groups, the smaller of which migrated southwards. The majority, however, went north-west in search of new homes. ), so that might be another point of possible cultural exchange.

You know, I just remembered that Dunhoung is the location of the Jade Gate which is just a short distance from Loulan ("The Beauty Of Loulan") where a number of these mummies were found and some of the oldest Tocharian writing. The Tocharians (if they are in fact the same people) did a lot of trade in jade.

Consider how the ancient Syrians guarded their knowlege of iron working, and then consider how valuable the knowlege of a place where people have a material that is highly prized by your local community, but there it is cheap and common?

It is my personal belief that travel in the ancient world was much more common and much more widespread than modern archeology is willing to concede, and that the primary motivation for this travel was economic. My theory is that the knowlege of these distant places and what goods were to be traded was kept as a closely guarded secret by various families and tribes over generations.

"Just the one by Barber, it was excellent. I have to get around the "The Tarim Mummies" as I have heard so much about it."

I agree. Barber was recruited by Mair to do the textile studies. He had many other experts with him on numerous trips to this region. If you liked Barber's book, Mair's will 'knock your socks off.' (so much detail). I've become fascinated with this area just from reading his work.

"It is my personal belief that travel in the ancient world was much more common and much more widespread than modern archeology is willing to concede."

I agree. However, I believe a lot of the migrations were the result of famines, plagues and numerous other catastrophies.

In fact, I believe these folks found out in the Chinese desert were there as a consequence of the flooding of the Black Sea (Noah's Flood?) in 5,600BC.

We have been living half or more of the Year in Thailand (Chiang Mai) and I am now pretty much retired. As a result, I have had a lot of time to read and have always been interested in History / archaeology. With any luck, I can talk a cousin of my Wife's who speaks Chinese and has traveled throughout China To wander around with us. Fortunatly, both she and my wife share my interests. The problem is that there is so many "must see" places. Toy saw the Three Gorges before they started work on the Dam and wants us to see that general area even with the flooding. It seems a can't lose proposition.

Sounds fascinating. I posted an article recently about something interesting that was just found around the Three Gorges Dam area...LOL, I can't remember anything about it.

That is interesting! Perhaps it is time for someone to do a timeline on Serpent / Dragon myths.

If I remember right, I believe Daniel Garrison Brinton collected a lot of serpent/dragon myths in the late 19th century. Also try:

Ernest Ingersoll, Dragons and Dragon Lore

To sketch an outline of a timeline off the top of my head: In prehistoric art there's a lot of water symbolism which seems to be snake-related, and examples of this are present in the Neolithic art of Old Europe (that is, what archaeologist Marija Gimbutas calls Old Europe--not a reference to Don Rumsfeld's term, LOL!). The earliest known written serpent/dragon myths come from the Middle East c. 3000-2000 BC (notably the Sumerian-Babylonian Tiamat, Apsu, and Kur, as well as Egyptian deities such as Apep, Denwen, and Wadjet). In Western Europe, there is archaeological evidence of serpentine deities at Bronze Age Crete, and we have written myths dating from Homer and Hesiod on, with the German/Norse stuff first being documented by Tacitus but I don't think he includes any serpent/dragon myths, for that you probably have to go to Beowulf and the Norse epics in the Middle Ages. In the east, serpents are known in written Indian texts from about 1200 BC on, and earlier in archaeological art finds, I believe; our earliest copies of Chinese literature come from I believe the Ch'in Dynasty in the 3rd century BC (unfortunately Emperor Shih Huang Ti destroyed most earlier records in the late 200s BC, so IMO we don't have reliable written records on earlier Chinese periods), and again there's probably earlier examples in archaeological art finds; I believe the earliest known Japanese written records are from the 8th century AD. In the Pacific islands there are dragon myths, but I don't know the earliest dates these are attested--written records are probably pretty late there, I imagine most of the evidence is archaeological. In America the Olmecs from perhaps 1200 BC on worshipped a deity who appears to combine features of a jaguar and a serpent, and after that serpent-worship was continuous among the Mayans, Toltecs, and Aztecs, with characteristics that IMO resemble India's Kali cult. The North American Indian tribes also have some serpent/dragon myths, which I believe Brinton collects, that bear some resemblance to European dragon-slayer legends. I think there's some evidence suggesting Indian and Chinese dragon traditions influencing the Olmec/Mayan tradition. To what extent there was interaction between these traditions and others I don't know, but I think it'd be worth looking into.

Very impressive listing. There seems to be at least a hint of "common" mythology there. I can see how tropical climates and large snakes go with each other, but the giant, dragon / snake in Northern Europe and China / Japan is grounds to at least suspect some interaction, wouldn't you think?

Again, thanks for sharing. It helps me a lot.

Very impressive listing. There seems to be at least a hint of "common" mythology there. I can see how tropical climates and large snakes go with each other, but the giant, dragon / snake in Northern Europe and China / Japan is grounds to at least suspect some interaction, wouldn't you think?

You ask a big question for which I will try to give a reasonably short answer--though as I review what I typed below, I fear I have may not succeeded in that endeavor :)

IMO there are certain aspects of serpent/dragon myths which can arise independently and certain aspects which are due to cross-cultural interaction. The independent aspects are rooted in biological factors (for instance Balaji Mundkur in Cult of the Serpent cites studies showing that fear of snakes and snake-like shapes is innate in many higher mammals and is present even in human cultures from regions where there are no snakes), psychological archetypes (like the common association between snakes and water I mentioned in my other post), and what for lack of a better term might be called parapsychological factors (most notably, sightings of sea serpents and shamanistic dreams/visions about snakes, both of which play into serpent mythology). These factors may cause similar serpent/dragon myths to arise independently in some cases, while in other cases cross-cultural interaction may play a role, or may also play a role in combination with these independent factors. To establish cross-cultural interaction playing a role in a given case, IMO we have to set up criteria for distinguishing between elements arising from such interaction and elements arising independently. A few criteria we can use are spatio-temporal continuity between cultures (for instance, we know the Romans took much of their culture and mythology from the Greeks, so when similar elements appear there we should suspect borrowing), known social contact, and known linguistic/artistic/cultural influence.

Now to apply that: There is a certain type of serpent/dragon myth, which I'll call here the myth of the cosmic serpent, that is common to a set of cultures branching out from the ancient Middle East into Europe in one direction and India in the other. The prototype of this myth is the Sumerian/Babylonian Enuma Elish myth telling the storm-god Marduk's slaying of the primeval sea serpents Tiamat and Apsu. This myth was in part intended to explain seasonal weather patterns as these affected crop fertility, with Tiamat and Apsu representing hostile weather forces that threatened crop irrigation management and Marduk representing counterbalancing weather forces that made such irrigation possible. Very similar myths appear in a band of cultures stretching from ancient Greece (compare with Zeus' battle against Typhoeus in Hesiod's Theogony) to India (Indra vs. Vritra), and in this case there is good evidence of cross-cultural influence due to continuity, known social contact, and close linguistic and narrative parallels.

Now the cultures that told this cosmic serpent myth were also in contact with Northern European cultures. The Scythians were a point of contact between Middle Eastern, Greek, and Celtic culture during the Iron Age. In the case of German and Norse serpent/dragon myths, by the time these were written down Norse culture had already been influenced by Greco-Roman mythology. The 13th-century Icelandic writer Snorri Sturluson opens his account of Norse mythology by tracing the lineage of the German and Norse people to the time of the Trojan War; and it is from Snorri that we first know one of the most important Norse serpent myths, the myth of the Midgard's Serpent, so it may be that Norse mythology was influenced by earlier mythology in that case. I'd suggest that elements of the Midgard's Serpent myth also arose independently from Norse mariners' reports of sea serpent sightings, which are common in most seafaring cultures as well as cultures living in areas of glacial lakes such as those common in Scandinavia. I'd guess that there were probably local serpent myths in Scandinavia before the Middle Eastern/Greek influence came in, and once the Scandinavians came into contact with these other cultures' serpent myths they probably integrated them, resulting in the Midgard's Serpent myth as we have it recorded by Snorri. However I want to emphasize that's only an inference on my part--the only hard data we have there is Snorri's record and other records from the same period, though perhaps there is earlier archaeological data I'm not aware of. I imagine the dragon motif that often appears on Viking ships may also be an allusion to the Midgard's Serpent, and I assume there are studies of Norse art which would discuss this in more detail.

Distinct from the Midgard's serpent's "cosmic serpent myth", Norse myth also includes stories of lesser dragons such as the one encountered by Beowulf. I put this other type of dragon story in a separate category of "dragon-slayer legends" which are less cosmic and more local in scope than the cosmic serpent myth; the tale of St. George would be another example of this. Such dragon-slayer legends tend to be associated with local bodies of water such as rivers, and are often used to explain local weather/agricultural phenomena, just as the cosmic serpent myth is used to explain large-scale weather/agricultural phenomena. James George Frazer in The Golden Bough mentions that such dragon-slayer legends are nearly universally distributed--you can even find examples in North American mythology. Because of this, with dragon-slayer legends I generally assume independent origins unless there is some strong evidence suggesting otherwise, such as for instance dragon-slayer legends in adjacent geographical regions having distinctive characteristics not found in another. (For example, British, Norse, and German legends ascribe dragons certain qualities somewhat different than Asian legends do, giving rise to the suspicion that there is probably a closer relationship between British, Norse, and German dragon-slayer legends than there is between, say, British and Chinese dragon-slayer legends.)

Now that I've said all that, to finally get to the question of how Northern European serpent/dragon myths might relate to Chinese/Japanese ones: There is a Chinese creation myth about a primeval deity named P'an Ku (aka Pan Gu) and his half-dragon mate Nu-Kua, which bears some resemblance to the Sumerian/Babylonian Tiamat myth (see summary here). The P'an Ku myth was popular in southern China between the 3rd and 6th centuries AD, and there had already been western influence on China by that time via Persia and India (possibly dating back as early as contact between the Sumerian and Mohenjo-Daro/Harappa cultures, I suspect), so that may be an example of cross-cultural influence. China and Japan also share in common myths about dragons such as Ryo-Wo/Ryujin, the underwater Dragon King (see Dragon King and Ryujin ), which appears to be a product of interaction between Chinese Buddhism and Japanese Shintoism. To what extent other cultures may have influenced the Chinese/Japanese concept of the Dragon King I don't know. However I will mention that the Dragon King does strike me as reminiscent of dragon deities known in the Pacific Islands, such as the Polynesian Tangaroa, as well as the Eskimo ocean goddess Sedna, which may perhaps be an indication of interaction between Chinese/Japanese culture and cultures further east in the Pacific.

So much for my attempt at a short answer :) But I hope that helps a little in answering your question.

We have the Serpent Mound in Ohio.

"Serpent Mound, an embankment of earth resembling a snake nearly a quarter-mile long, is the largest and finest serpent effigy in North America."

"Who built the mound - one of the few effigies in Ohio - and why they constructed it, remains a mystery."

We have the Serpent Mound in Ohio.

I find the Serpent Mound most intriguing. When the European colonists first came over here, the mounds reminded them so much of what they'd seen in Britain they assumed they were built by Celts, which is a hypothesis contemporary anthropologists have discarded but one that might well be revisited in light of the other stuff we're discussing. Add that to the evidence of the Mound Building culture's contact via the Mississippi with the Aztalan culture to the north (blam, if you haven't read it you might find interesting Frank Joseph, Atlantis in Wisconsin: New Revelations About the Lost Sunken City--also some information there about early copper mining in Wisconsin that makes for comparison with Barry Fell's work on Bronze Age America) and the Mexican cultures to the south, and there are some interesting possibilities.

BTW that reminds me I wanted to include an example of an American Indian dragonslayer legend, the Algonquin legend of Glooskap, who is sort of an American version of St. George:

How Glooskap made a Magician of a Young Man

I also meant to mention another author whose work on mythology has some useful information on dragons, Donald A. Mackenzie--was trying to remember his name when I mentioned Daniel G. Brinton last night. Among others he wrote Myths of Pre-Columbian America and China and Japan: Myths and Legends, both of which have some snake/dragon stories in them.

(Incidentally, blam, I checked out a copy of The Mummies of Urumchi today. Just started it--looks very interesting! :)

"Frank Joseph, Atlantis in Wisconsin: New Revelations About the Lost Sunken City."

I suggest you steer clear of this guy. He's the editor of Ancient American Magazine (which I subscribe to), he changed his name to try to escape an unsavor past with either neo-nazis or white-supremists (forgot which). I'm very careful when reading that magazine...and take most of their work with a 'grain-of-salt.'

They frequently feature articles about Burrows Cave which Barry Fell said was all a big fraud. Fell made an error in one of his books and didn't realize it until after it was published and distributed. A short time later, an artifact with that error included was 'discovered' in Burrows Cave.

"(Incidentally, blam, I checked out a copy of The Mummies of Urumchi today. Just started it--looks very interesting! :)"

Great. It's quick, fun and easy reading. When you get to The Tarim Mummies by JP Malloy and Victor Mair, expect to spend some time with it...it's an excellent book.

Here's some info on Frank Joseph (Collin) .

"Frank Joseph Collin is most often associated in the public mind as the neo-Nazi who threatened in 1977 to march and rally in Skokie, a predominately Jewish suburb of Chicago. "

"The Illinois Corrections Department released Collin after three years, a "minimum time served," from his 1980 conviction of sexually molesting young boys. Since 1983 Collin has established himself as a published author, editor, and anti-science proponent. Collin now writes articles on "sacred sites" and "Atlantis" for such nationally distributed magazines as Fate and The Ancient American. His publishers know the true identity of Frank Joseph; his readers do not."

I suggest you steer clear of this guy. He's the editor of Ancient American Magazine (which I subscribe to), he changed his name to try to escape an unsavor past with either neo-nazis or white-supremists (forgot which). I'm very careful when reading that magazine...and take most of their work with a 'grain-of-salt.'

Thanks, didn't know that about his background; though it doesn't surprise me as some things in his book are a bit, I'll say, eccentric. I take everything I read with a grain of salt anyway, though :) Often I will read an author like that even if I strongly disagree with their conclusions in the hopes that they may have something useful in their footnotes. In the case of that book there's a lot of stuff in it I'd take issue with, but it is one of the few books out there on the Aztalan site, which is why I mentioned it. Unfortunately Aztalan hasn't gotten as much attention as similar sites like Cahokia and I'm not aware of too many books on it. Anyway, thanks for the info on Joseph--good to be aware of.

Here's some info on Frank Joseph (Collin)

Whew! Didn't know that about him, either!--he sounds like a piece of work. I did know Skokie has a Nazi problem. They were kind of making fun of the Skokie Nazis in The Blues Brothers: "Illinois Nazis--I hate Illinois Nazis." :)

Several Buddhists I know are intrigued by the American snake mounds and Central American temples where the stairways have a serpent representation. Specifically, they go to the Indo-Aryan Naga as a beneficent creature / diety, which is counterintuitive as the reference is often to the python or cobra. The multiheaded serpent frequently depicted as protecting the Buddha is only one in a history of beneficial serpents going back 1,500 years earlier. Some Monks speculate that a disciple of the Buddha journied to America with this as one base. Be advised though that the Monks I talk to are at small country Wats and do in no way pretend to speculate for anyone but themselves.

Fascinating. I'd be interested to know if they're getting their ideas on that from anything that's been published among Buddhists over there. My Tibetan Buddhist friend has mentioned that he's heard there are some parallels between certain aspects of Buddhist belief and SW American Indian myth, which makes me wonder if perhaps Buddhist authors have also collected some data on the subjects we're considering.

This reminds me, while I was looking up stuff on this last night I found a quite interesting site looking at the topics we're discussing from a Hindu-centric perspective:

India on Pacific Waves?

If you browse around this site there's a lot of relevant information on the history of India's naval contact with other cultures--although I'll caution that the site's presentation is very influenced by an anti-Western agenda that in some places has to be weeded out to get at the raw data; still, there's some very important information here.

A lot of interesting comparisions between figures from India and those in South America.

"My Tibetan Buddhist friend has mentioned that he's heard there are some parallels between certain aspects of Buddhist belief and SW American Indian myth, which makes me wonder if perhaps Buddhist authors have also collected some data on the subjects we're considering"

I read this book a few years ago by Dr Nancy Yaw Davis, very interesting and maybe a source of Buddhism among the American Indians.

The Zuni Enigma

"In a book with groundbreaking implications, Dr. Nancy Yaw Davis examines the evidence underscoring the Zuni enigma, and suggests the circumstances that may have led Japanese on a religious quest-searching for the legendary "middle world" of Buddhism-across the Pacific and to the American Southwest more than seven hundred years ago."