Do the Democrats Really Want to Talk About This?

USA Today via Powerline Blog ^ | Feb. 16, 2004 | Power Line Blog

[Defender2]

You might want to check out my posts on this thread:-)

[timpad]

The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation...

Another great point rarely made in this AWOL hoax. Every time Lt. Bush got in that aircraft, his life was in danger. That's not something a politically connected son-of-a-congressman would be willing to accept if he was just using the Guard to dodge Vietnam.

I think he'd probably get a nice, cushy job as...maybe a reporter for the Stars and Stripes Algore. He could then have even gone to Vietnam and in reality been as safe as he was back at St. Albans Algore. Seems I've heard of someone who did exactly that sort of thing Algore, but I can't remember who it was. Must've been a pretty minor figure Algore.

[richardtavor]

As a squadron Yeoman in the Air Navy (Reserve) for several years I concur--essentially, all fitness reports for pilots were pretty much identical, and pretty much all 4.0 (When I was in, Reserve Pilots were non-pay (which I assume GWB was as well), so it was pretty extreme to give someone less than 4.0--they would have lost their billet immediately and been booted out to non flight status. Had this been the case with GWB, it would have been all over his paperwork. I do resent the fact that a**holes like MacAuliff consider Reserve Duty to be non-military AWOL and avoidance of active duty. I sure as hell served active and knew of a number of Reservist Pilots that bought the Farm--both at home and in Nam.

[gatorbait]

What we need in a president is what Bush has: a vision, decisiveness, guts, and determination who puts the safety, security, and well being of our country and the people, above all else.

All of the above is absolutely true.BUT,is he conservative enough to make St Pat the Loquacious ,patron saint of the suicidally unappeasable, and his acolytes happy?

[Arkie2]

I drank many a beer with the boys from the 57th and did a little bat hanging. Definitey not recommended if you value your health!

[.cnI redruM]

Taken from the address: http://www.ang.af.mil/history/Heritage/VietnamWar.asp

Vietnam War
On 23 January 1968, the North Koreans seized the American spy ship, U.S.S. Pueblo. President Johnson ordered a limited reserve mobilization. Next, the communists' Tet offensive in South Vietnam in February 1968 stretched American military resources thinner. The President ordered another small mobilization. In response to the first presidential order, the ANG mobilized 9,343 personnel on 25 January 1968. Within 36 hours, approximately 95 percent of the Air Guardsmen had reported to their units. Those included eight tactical fighter groups, three tactical reconnaissance groups and three wing headquarters. The fighter units, which had been beneficiaries of additional resources under the "Combat Beef" program, were rated combat ready when called into federal service. Primarily because of equipment shortages, the reconnaissance units took about a month to prepare themselves for overseas service. The President mobilized and additional 1,333 Air Guardsmen on 13 May. ANG units mobilized in May included two tactical fighter groups and a medical evacuation unit. The former, equipped with F-86Hs, were sent to Cannon AFB, New Mexico to train Air Force pilots as forward air controllers and combat crewmen. The latter transported military patients in the continental U.S. and the Caribbean.

On 3 May, F-100s from the 120th Tactical Fighter Squadron (Colorado) arrived at Phan Rang Air Base. By 1 June, all of the l20th's pilots were flying combat missions. In the meantime, the 174th (Iowa), 188th (New Mexico), and the 136th (New York) had all deployed to Vietnam with their F-100s. In addition, 85 percent of the 355th Tactical Fighter Squadron -- on paper a regular Air Force unit -- were Air Guardsmen. The Air Guard units were quickly and effectively integrated into Air Force combat operations in Southeast Asia (SEA). Prior to their return home in April 1969, they flew 24,124 sortie and 38,614 combat hours. Those numbers rose to approximately 30,000 sorties and 50,000 combat hours if the predominantly Air Guard 355th was included. Two ANG fighter squadrons and their F-100Cs were dispatched to Korea in the summer of 1968 to replace the Air Force units that had been rushed there during the Pueblo crisis. The 166th (Ohio) and the 127th (Kansas) were formed into the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing. Except for the two flying squadrons, the wing consisted of individual Guardmembers and Air Force Reservists from other units. Once the Pueblo's crew was returned, the Air Guardsmen returned to the U.S. and left federal service shortly thereafter.

The 123rd TRW experienced a difficult tour of active duty. The wing and its four units -- the 123rd Tactical Reconnaissance Group (Kentucky), 189th Tactical Reconnaissance Group (TRG) (Arkansas), 152nd TRG (Reno), and the 123rd Reconnaissance Technical Squadron (RTS) (Arkansas) -- had not been rated combat-ready when mobilized on 26 January 1968 primarily due to equipment shortages. The l23rd's RF-101s began functioning as the primary Air Force tactical reconnaissance platforms in the continental U.S. Elements of its squadrons rotated temporary duty assignments in Japan and Korea from July 1968 until April 1969 providing photo reconnaissance support to American forces in those areas.

Air Guard volunteers also supported Air Force operations in Southeast Asia. The first sizable ANG airlift involvement began in 1965. They flew regularly to SEA until 1972. Between August 1965 and September, Air Guard domestic and offshore aeromedical evacuation flights freed active duty Air Force resources for such missions in SEA. In July 1970, two EC-121 "Super Constellations" from Pennsylvania's 193rd Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron departed their home station for Korat, Thailand. During the next six months, about 60 Guardsmen were rotated through the latter installation on 30 to 60 day tours in Operation "Commando Buzz," Their aircraft served as flying radar stations and airborne control platforms for U.S. air operations in SEA until January 1971.

[Defender2]

I told him it was a 57th F.I.S F-102A in my post #29, thanks:-)

[BOBTHENAILER]

The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home,

NIce job with this.

[Kozak]

In the days of Draft and unpopular Vietnam war, national guard was a way to dodge the draft. Rich and politically connected found themselves enlisted in national guard as a way to avoid serving in the war at that time. The point democrats are trying to make is that our neocon warriers never served in a war and they like wars only when somebody else's sons and daughters do the dying on frontline.

So was volunteering for the Navy. Or the Air Force. Or in fact volunteering for service as oppused to waiting to be drafted as that gave you a far better chance of avoiding ending up a grunt in Vietnam, as opposed to a desk clerk in Wiesbaden.

That said, Guard service was still honorable duty. It wasn't dodging the draft, or fleeing to Canada, or using a bogus disability ( ala Dean) or lying to extend college deferments (ala Bubba). Being a pilot in the Air Guard DID NOT immunize one from service in Vietnam. Nor from a chance at a violent death. I know this from personal experience, having had the sad duty of picking up the pieces of a Georgia Air Guard F4 crew from the swamp they crashed in. That was one of 3 Guard crashes I investigated as a Flight Surgeon. It also involved more time and commitment to be a Guard pilot then most other duty, basically 2 years of the equivalent of active duty. With the possibility of a major war with the Soviet Union always a real possibility.

For the Democrats, the party of Clinton, the draft dodger president, who sent US forces into harms way in the Balkans, Haiti and Somalia, and over Iraq, (while being Lewinskyed while discussing it with a congressman) to question ANYONES credentials to lead the nation is disgusting. They gave up that ability with the 8 years on THEIR KNEES to Bubba. the party that would leave our troops with nothing but their d#cks in their hands as weapons bassed on their opposition to pretty much every weapon system, who would reduce the military to some kind of expensive social welfare agency, under UN command, should really shut about this, especially with John (Fonda ) Kerry as it's standaard bearer. Any good he did the US in Vietnam was far outweighted by his antiwar antics and horrible record on defence and intelligence since.

[gatorbait]

I saw that, had not gotten down there yet . See, GMTA :- )

[Defender2]

:-)

[The Wizard]

check this post it explains it all

[timpad]

From Snopes.com, a bit of information on the last Great Democrat War Hero:

 

(snip) Gore filled his position with the 20th Engineers for five months. Army regulations at the time allowed for early discharge of personnel who wanted to teach or attend school if their services were considered "not essential to the mission." As a reporter, Gore was certainly not "essential" to the war effort, and he applied for such a discharge. After spending an additional month at the U.S. Army Engineer Command in Long Binh, Gore was mustered out and sent home two months early to attend Vanderbilt Divinity School. His discharge was not, as the piece quoted above claims, a "special dispensation," and it cut only two months (not seven) from a tour of duty that could not have lasted more than seven months in the first place.

[Kozak]

Too bad the safety was on. It might have increased his IQ.

[richardtavor]

I was also a Reservist during the time of GWB (Air Navy)--we were criticised because we parked offshore and didn't have the boots on the ground. But I assure you, many Navy Pilots (many reservists) were killed or captured in Nam. I wrote the following response to an earlier post by Arkie2:

As a squadron Yeoman in the Air Navy (Reserve) for several years I concur--essentially, all fitness reports for pilots were pretty much identical, and pretty much all 4.0 (When I was in, Reserve Pilots were non-pay (which I assume GWB was as well), so it was pretty extreme to give someone less than 4.0--they would have lost their billet immediately and been booted out to non flight status. Had this been the case with GWB, it would have been all over his paperwork. I do resent the fact that a**holes like MacAuliff consider Reserve Duty to be non-military AWOL and avoidance of active duty. I sure as hell served active and knew of a number of Reservist Pilots that bought the Farm--both at home and in Nam.

I personally witnessed 3 crashes at a Naval Air Station in the U.S. 2 Pilots bailed successfully, but one was burnt to crisp.....so much for avoidance of duty or danger.

[baseballmom]

It may have been true for many people, not all. My brother served in the Army Nat'l Guard from Maryland, volunteered for Viet Nam, was not chosen, decided to go to OCS, was commisioned 2nd LT, volunteered for VN again. Not chosen again.

From various sources I've read, Bush knew he was going to have to serve one way or another. He wanted to fly planes as long as he had to serve. So why not join the Air National Guard? John Kerry joined the Navy Reserve so he could pick his particular type of service. He was called to active service. Apparently, neither waited for the draft to pick them.

Why are you denigrating ANY type of service to our country?

You are forgetting, that at that time, 1968 and on, we were only 5 1/2 years beyond the Cuban Missle Crisis, and still in the throes of the Cold War. Air National Guard service, Army Nat'l Guard service, Coast Guard, Navy Reserve, were all very valuable to the security of our nation.

Please don't denigrate my brother, and others who CHOSE to serve in the Guard and Reserves, at that time, no matter their reason.

[timpad]

Too bad the safety was on. It might have increased his IQ.

You'll also note the lack of a magazine and the stiff pack straps. Kinda makes you wonder what was actually going on here.

But Algore went, Kerry went, and Dubya didn't. The Left will not care that Dubya's life was likely in far more danger than Algore's, but so what? I'd like to stipulate that any service was valuable service, was appreciated and praiseworthy. Then we can get back to Kerry's little problem with Hanoi Jane.

[Kozak]

Actually, I hope they keep hammering this point. It will so infuriate people who know beter that the truth will in fact out. If the Left wants to really make this election about Vietnam, it will be another war the Democrats lose.

[SamAdams76]

In the days of Draft and unpopular Vietnam war, national guard was a way to dodge the draft. Rich and politically connected found themselves enlisted in national guard as a way to avoid serving in the war at that time...

Blah, blah, blah. Let me guess, you signed up a month ago (the very day of the Iowa Caucus) so that you could spend the campaign "informing" us that our president is some kind of draft dodger.

Please come straight with us. Was it the Dean campaign or the Kerry campaign that sent you here?

Anyway, I can almost imagine the conversation that your wild imagination must conjure up between our "draft-dodging" George W. Bush and his influential dad:

GWB - "Gee Dad, I would really like to avoid going to Vietnam and yet preserve my political viability at the same time. What do you suggest, Dad, should I join the Peace Corps or become a Rhodes Scholar so I can go to school in England or something?"

GHWB - "Well son, those are all swell ideas but not really prudent at this juncture, especially since this kid from Arkansas just got the last slot in Oxford. I suggest that if you really want to stay out of the war, you join the Texas National Guard and fly a fighter jet. I was a pilot myself and that's about the easiest and safest job a man looking to avoid combat could ever want. Once you learn how to fly a military jet, why they will never send you to any kind of war."

GWB - "Gee, thanks for the swell idea Dad. I think I'll give the F-102 fighter jet a whirl in the Texas National Guard. Looks like a piece of cake to fly and not very dangerous at all. And I hear you don't even have to be very bright to fly it either. Why I should be a natural. And if I am able to distinguish myself on this combat aircraft, why they would never consider me for going to Vietnam."

GHWB - "I think you're making a wise choice son. I feel much better about you flying the F-102 than taking your chances in England. I hear there's a lot of muggers in the streets of London and everybody looks like that subversise Mick Jagger. Dangerous, dangerous place. I'm proud of your decision son. You are indeed a Fortunate Son." (fade to Creedence Clearwater Revival.)

[Lauratealeaf]

" should be promoted well ahead of his contemporaries."

That phrase was always what set apart the finest from the best.

I agree. That statement would put him in the top five percent. If he had stayed in the military he would have been promoted early. That is how people become generals.