Oregon Measure 30 (Tax Increase) Expected to Fail

Various | Recent | Rep. Lane Shetterly, Julie Silverman

[cogitator]

Why doesn't the Oregon state government cut non-essential state programs and services instead of cutting school programs and vital public services?

Help them out! List the first five non-essential programs and the first five non-essential services that should be cut, and show the cost savings that accrue from these cuts over the next two years.

Why doesn't the Oregon state government threaten to lay off six-figure salaried bureaucrats instead of threatening to close or cut back programs that would hurt the children, the elderly, and the poor?

Help them out! List the first 10 six-figure salaried bureacrats that should be laid off, and their positions. Show the total cost savings that would accrue from these layoffs over the next two years.

Probably because nobody would care if non-essential state services were cut or if fat cat state bureaucrats lost their jobs.

Or maybe because a) there aren't that many non-essential state services, b) the savings are negligible, and c) the "fat cat" state bureaucrats aren't that numerous, and they might be doing an important job.

But people listen when legislators make their emotional pleas about protecting the children, the elderly, and the poor as they beg for more tax money to waste.

I'm with the governor of Oregon on this one.

"Gov. Ted Kulongoski (D), who supports the tax increase, said he is not inclined to call a budget-juggling special session but to let the cuts take effect: "I'm trying to get the public to believe that when the government says something in fact will happen that, in fact, it will happen."

That's a good attitude.

[cogitator]

Even if this figure is correct, it wouldn't necessarily mean that this money is being spent efficiently on education, public safey, and human services.

I agree 100%. I look forward to your substantive reply to post 21.

[nightdriver]

"If voters turn down the three-year, temporary increase in the income tax on Feb. 3, schools stand to automatically lose $285 million."

But the overloaded beaurocracies will be untouched, like the new Multnomah county librarian who was recently hired at TWICE the salary of the previous one! When the council member in charge of the hiring was asked why the librarian should be paid more than the governor of the state, she said "Well maybe the governor should be paid more, too!"

We're doomed if our public servants don't have any more of a sense of responsibility than that.

[cogitator]

But the overloaded beaurocracies will be untouched, like the new Multnomah county librarian who was recently hired at TWICE the salary of the previous one! When the council member in charge of the hiring was asked why the librarian should be paid more than the governor of the state, she said "Well maybe the governor should be paid more, too!"

Where I live, many of the county school system superintendents seem way overpaid, too. (Salaries in the 180K -- 200K/year range). However, the reason that the school districts pay such high salaries is that there is a lot of competition for top "talent" -- if they don't pay them these high salaries, apparently the best superintendents can find places that will. In order to get this madness to stop, there would need to be a national consensus that such salaries are too high, and none of the rich districts (with rich parents that want their kids to go to top-rated schools so the kids can then go to Ivy League universities) would have to agree not to hire superintendents at outrageously high salaries.

Now, I don't know if the same can be said for county librarians, but I suspect that the competitive aspect also applies. And while it is convenient to point fingers at examples of overpaid government employees, how does their salary compare to the overall budget in libraries for books/computers/etc.? I suspect that it isn't that much. Maybe if the librarian was hired for 30K less, the libraries could buy 60 more computers. That would be good -- but what's the total computer budget in the county libraries?

And I ask you: if you do a good job at what you do, wouldn't you seek the best pay for that job?

It's kinda like the situation with baseball. Does anyone blame Alex Rodriguez for taking a salary that was offered to him?

[hattend]

Freeze salaries...Reagan did it in the 60's...I know because my mom was a state employee and she hated it, but we somehow made it.

Retire/layoff a portion of local, county, state school administrators. They will always be the first thing that comes to my mind...they go before one teacher (oh, and fire substandard teachers - break the union)
(the education beaurocracy is out of it's mind)

Delay/cancel city/county/state building construction - they can stay in old buildings a few more years

Remove any overlapping state/county/city legislation - how many people need to take their cut of the cash cow before it gets to the people in need (local taxes stay local, state stays in the state)

Sell off official transportation (let the elected officials use their own vehicles and reimburse)

Renegotiate or delay city/county/state contracts

Keep the stuff that actually provides a value - cops, fire, trash, sewer, highway maintenance

If you don't think there is a 20-30% city/county/state "fat" factor that can be excised, then we will agree to disagree.

Do it right, you don't have anything to lose except some dead wood.

I'm sure I could add some more if I got to see the books.

[6ppc]

"There has been some pretty blunt education of voters this time around. I think that it could go the right way."

Sounds like there is some pretty blunt education of legislators going on...kind of like what happened here in Alabama!

[lawnguy]

This is why the President needs to hammer his tax cut theme all the way through October. No matter what, stay on the tax reduction message. When Oregon is fed up with taxes, then by golly you've got yourself an issue. I recommend a Security/Tax relief barrage on the airwaves.

[judgeandjury]

Where is the waste? Can I name some programs?

What I, and I'm sure most Oregonians, would love to see, and which Oregon's state legislators would fight tooth and nail to prevent the public from seeing, is a very detailed report showing a breakdown of where every last penny of the taxpayer's money is being spent. This report would include, among other things, a complete list of all state employees including which department or agency they worked for, their job title and job duties, and their salary. I guarantee you that if Oregon's taxpayers had access to this kind of detailed information, they would have no trouble finding fat to cut.

By the way, here is a list of a few of Oregon's state departments and agencies. Are all of these essential to have fully staffed during a recession? Can any of these departments or agencies be eliminated altogether? Can any of these departments or agencies be combined to avoid redundant services or to provide more efficient services to the public?

Accountancy, Board of
Acupuncture Licensure Board
Administrative Services, Dept. of
Agriculture, Department of
Appraiser Certification & Licensure Board
Architect Examiners, Board of
Archives, Secretary of State
Area Commissions on Transportation
Arts Commission
Asian Affairs Commission
Athletic Trainers, Board of
Attorney General
Audits Division, Sec. of State
Aviation, Department of
Black Affairs Commission
Blind Commission
Board of Medical Examiners
Board of Naturopathic Examiners
Boundary Commissions
Building Codes Division
Business Name Search
Business Referral Center
Capitol Planning Commission
Child Support, Division of
Children & Families Commission
Children's Health Insurance Program
Children's Trust Fund
Chiropractic Examiners Board
Clinical Social Workers, Board of
Columbia River Gorge Commission
Community Colleges & Workforce Dev.
Community Solutions
Construction Contractors Board
Consumer & Business Services Dept.
Corporation Division
Corporation Division, Sec. of State
Corrections, Department of
Cosmetology, Board of
Counselors & Therapists Board
Court Procedures, Council on
Criminal Justice Commission
Criminal Justice Services Division
Degree Authorization, Office of
Dentistry, Board of
Denture Technology, Board of
Dieticians, Board of Examiners of Licensed
Disabilities Commission
Dispute Resolutions Commission
Driver & Motor Vehicle Services
Economic & Community Development
Economic Analysis, Office of
Education, Department of
Elections Division, Sec. of State
Emergency Management Office
Emergency Medical Services
Emeritus License
Employment Department
Employment Dept. Advisory Council
Employment Relations Board
Employment Relations Board
Energy, Office of
Engineering and Land Surveying, Board of Examiners for
Environmental Quality Department
Examiners for Eng. & Land Survey
Examiners of Licensed Dietitians
Fair and Expo Center
Film & Video Office
Finance & Corporate Securities
Fire Marshal, Office of State
Fish & Wildlife Commission
Fish & Wildlife, Department of
Forest Resources Institute
Forestry, Department of
Geologist Examiners Board
Geology & Mineral Industries Dept.
Government Standards & Practices
Governor, Office of the
Health Licensing Office
Health Policy & Research Office
Health Related Licensing Boards
Higher Education System
Hispanic Affairs, Commission on
Housing & Community Services
Human Services, Department of
Indian Services, Commission on
Insurance Division
Insurance Pool Governing Board
Investigators, Board of
Judicial Department
Justice, Department of
Judicial Fitness and Disability, Commission on
Labor & Industries, Bureau of
Land Conservation & Development
Land Use Board of Appeals
Lands Division, State
Landscape Architect Board
Landscape Contractors Board
Legislative Administration
Legislative Assembly
Legislative Commission on Indian Servives
Legislative Counsel, Office of the
Legislative Fiscal Office
Legislative Revenue Office
Library, Oregon State
Licensee Lookup
Liquor Control Commision
Locum Tenens License
Long Term Care Ombudsman Office
Lottery, Oregon State
Marine Board
Massage Therapists, Board of
Medical Examiners, Board of
Medical Insurance Pool
Midwifery, Board of Direct Entry
Military Department
Minority, Women & Small Business
Mortuary & Cemetery Board
Motor Carrier Transportation Div.
Naturopathic Examiners Board
Naturopathic Examiners, Board of
Northwest Power Planning Council
Notary Public
Nursing Home Administrators Board
Nursing, Board of
Occupational Safety & Health (OSHA)
Occupational Therapy Licensing Board
Office of Administrative Hearings
Optometry Board
Oregon Heritage Commission
Oregon Institute of Technology
Oregon OSHA (OR-OSHA)
Oregon State Police
Oregon University System
Oregon Travel Information Council
Oregon Wine Board
Pacific States Marine Fisheries Commission
Parks & Recreation Dept.
Parole & Post-Prison Supervision
Pharmacy Board
Physical Therapist Licensing Board
Physician Assistant
Professional Counselors Licensing Board
Progress Board
Psychiatric Security Review Board
Psychologist Examiners Board
Public Defense Services
Public Employees Retirement System
Public Safety Standards & Training
Public Utility Commission
Racing Commission
Radiologic Technology Board
Real Estate Agency
Resource & Technology Dev. Board
Respiratory Therapist Board
Revenue, Department of
Sanitarians Registration Board
Secretary of State
Speech Pathology & Audiology Board
State Historic Preservation Office
Student Assistance Commission
Tax Practitioners, Board of
Tax Service Examiners Board
Tax Supervising & Conservation
Teacher Standards & Practices Comm.
Tourism Commission
Transportation Commission
Transportation Department (ODOT)
Travel Information Council
Treasury, State
Uniform Commercial Code
Uniform State Laws, Commission on
University System
Veterans Affairs, Department of
Veterinary Medical Examining Board
Water Resource Commission
Water Resources Department
Watershed Enhancement Board
Western Oregon University
Women, Commission for
Workers' Compensation Board
Workers' Compensation Division
Youth Authority

[cogitator]

Freeze salaries...Reagan did it in the 60's...I know because my mom was a state employee and she hated it, but we somehow made it.

That's fine; some employees will quit, and due to the budget situation, the positions won't be filled. It will take longer for government services to get done.

Retire/layoff a portion of local, county, state school administrators. They will always be the first thing that comes to my mind...they go before one teacher (oh, and fire substandard teachers - break the union) (the education beaurocracy is out of it's mind)

How many can you cut (and how much do you save) before there is an impact on the effective management of the educational system? I don't know the answer to that. I suspect that the number of administrators required to effectively manage a county school system is more than 1. Good schools require good administrators, but I don't know how many they require. I do know that NCLB is requiring more supervision of school-by-school success.

Delay/cancel city/county/state building construction - they can stay in old buildings a few more years.

That's a separate budget category, not general fund. Same goes for transportation projects.

Remove any overlapping state/county/city legislation - how many people need to take their cut of the cash cow before it gets to the people in need (local taxes stay local, state stays in the state)

Very good idea, but long in implementation and slow to accrue savings. The Measure 30 plan was looking at the next two years.

Sell off official transportation (let the elected officials use their own vehicles and reimburse)

How much would that save?

Renegotiate or delay city/county/state contracts

The amount that would be saved would depend on the size of the contract.

If you don't think there is a 20-30% city/county/state "fat" factor that can be excised, then we will agree to disagree.

I don't "think"; I try to base my opinions on actual numbers. I don't have numbers that would indicate whether 20-30% is feasible or not. In the articles I posted, the Republican legislator indicated that substantial cuts had been made and he didn't sound optimistic about finding much room for more. He would probably have a much better perspective on that than I would.

[cogitator]

Sounds like there is some pretty blunt education of legislators going on...kind of like what happened here in Alabama!

Alabama is a great state!

Where does Alabama rank in per-capita spending on education? 50th. That means that if they could achieve 49th, they've improved!

[judgeandjury]

I look forward to your substantive reply to post 21.

See #28. I'm going to contact my state legislator and request that he send me very detailed information regarding where every single penny of Oregon taxpayer's money is being spent. My gut feeling is that he won't Fedex that information to me anytime soon.

[judgeandjury]

I look forward to your substantive reply to post 21.

See #28. I'm going to contact my state legislator and request that he send me very detailed information regarding where every single penny of Oregon taxpayer's money is being spent. My gut feeling is that he won't Fedex that information to me anytime soon.

[cogitator]

Budget and Management Division, State of Oregon

Water Resources Department

Water Resources (PDF)

Just looking at this as an example, while it doesn't show individual job title and salary information, it does show how many employees there are. 10 positions have been cut in the 2003-2005 budget.

Here's the Board of Nursing page:

Board of Nursing (PDF)

It has increased substantially. See if you think it should have. Go ahead and cut the Board of Nursing that oversees that nurses are properly trained. Then, when an improperly-trained nurse forgets to cross-check blood types and kills someone with a routine transfusion; well, accidents happen.

[cogitator]

See #34. Maybe not down to the penny, but it's down to the dollar.

[cogitator]

Just FYI, here's the home page for the Oregon Water Resources Department.

A lot of good information there.

And: Oregon State Board of Nursing

Quick check: the budget page indicated about 35 employees, and that looks about the same as the staff page; i.e., just about everyone is listed. You can start cutting there. Who's expendable?

The reason that I'm providing these examples is that you made it seem like it was hard to find information about the budget and what these departments do and who works where. It's not that hard.

[hattend]

I don't "think"; I try to base my opinions on actual numbers. I don't have numbers that would indicate whether 20-30% is feasible or not

Look at your post #28...it's feasible

[nightdriver]

"It's kinda like the situation with baseball. Does anyone blame Alex Rodriguez for taking a salary that was offered to him?"

I don't blame the new librarian, I blame the "public servant" who hired her and arrogantly increased the library's budget at a time when they are laying off teachers and releasing criminals due to revenue shortfalls.

If I was boss, there are some governmental heads that would roll, for sure.

[enraged]

You nailed it there! Too much waste!
Here's a way to cut some cash, do away with prevailing wage requirements! Prevailing where? Why do contractors get paid 2-3 times what I get paid for doing the same job? Oh yeah, because it's not their money being spent. If you have to personally pay for something would you buy Brand “X” from the factory, or Brand “Xa” (The same said item) from a third party dealer for 2-3 times the amount? Paying a low level employee $22-25 p/h for what the private sector pays $8-10 p/h is just plain dumb. Ask a flagger what they get paid, and see if that seems right for an unskilled private sector job.
Seems as tho cogitator is in a last ditch effort to save his job!

[judgeandjury]

Go ahead and cut the Board of Nursing that oversees that nurses are properly trained. Then, when an improperly-trained nurse forgets to cross-check blood types and kills someone with a routine transfusion; well, accidents happen.

The Board of Nursing is just one of several dozens of Agencies and Departments in Oregon's state government. If the Board of Nursing is indeed that important and it can't sustain any additional cuts and still provide a quality level of service, then no cuts to it's staff or funding would be made. Instead, painless cuts could perhaps be made to Oregon's Film & Video Office, or to Oregon's Office of Economic Analysis, or to the Oregon Wine Board, or to any of many other Agencies and Departments in the state. But what is needed before any additional cuts can be made to any Oregon Agency or Department is very detailed financial information about that Agency or Department, the kind of information that state legislatures try their best to keep the voters from finding out about.