Posted on 01/15/2004 2:01:19 PM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection
I also wish Israel would quit trying to get the man released to that country. Pollard is an American citizen. It's this country he betrayed. Israel has no claim on him.
To be more precise: Yitzhak Yzertinsky was Operations Commander of the Stern Gang from 1942 to 1948. In particular, he planned and executed the murders of Lord Moyne (1944 November 6) and Count Bernadotte (1948 September 17).
You should also mention that he was one of the authors of the infamous von Pfaffen Memorandum of Januaty 1941, in which the Stern Gang offered Adolf Hitler a political and military alliance. In his own words:
The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.
Not a very nice guy.
The Israeli government, its intelligence agencies, and lots of good Israelis who think the US should cut Pollard a break for spying for what is basically a good country and a dependable American ally. I disagree with that particular position -- although I generally support Israel and understand that in the grand scheme of things they are usually the good guys.
Unfortunately, they are many. Before Pollard, they were usually not prosecuted (and after Pollard as well -- they were normally just removed from access, made to resign commissions, etc). If you are suggesting that I think they are mostly Jewish, I don't think they are. They are mostly greedy, and disloyal, which are human failings that know no race or religion.
The reason that Israeli intelligence needs to spy on us, is that they know that we have information that we don't share with them, which might be very important to the survival and well-being of their country and their people. You might say that they have a fiduciary duty to do this, as do other sovereign nations.
Given that they have an imperative to spy, they must also be seen by their active spies to be energetic and committed to the cause of captured spies... if they just let Pollard rot, it would be discouraging to any present or future Pollards, and they might need such men. That was the meaning of my post about the "Israelis" (whom I should have defined more precisely and "their other agents."
Spies for the Israelis are not necessarily Jews (Pollard, in fact, was totally secularized and assimilated, and had no connexion with his Jewish identity, until after his capture). For many years the Israeli secret services maintained that they would not use local Jews because exposure of a spy might cause a terrible backlash on innocent Jews in that nation (as happened in Egypt in the 1950s, and again in Syria after the exposure of Elie Cohen -- look him up). However, they did get caught using local Jews in Norway in 1973 (when taking revenge on the savages that murdered the Israeli Olympians in Munich) and then, of course, there is Pollard, who was a walk-in.
I've got no beef with the world's Jews. A remarkable bunch of people, and some of the greatest Americans. My comment "This selfless servant of world Jewry" was a sarcastic reference to the way that the greedy, faithless Pollard has re-invented himself as a faithful Jewish martyr after being sentenced to prison. In the long run, Pollard didn't do himself, Israel, the US, the Jews or the goyim any good at all.
But I can see how you took my smart-ass comment as an anti-Semitic slur. That's a problem with the net, of course, comments are stripped of the connotative impact of inflection and tone. Seriously, I was putting down one bad Jew, Jon Jay Pollard, not the millions of good ones.
By this you mean my reference to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir as "former Stern Gang terrorist." Yeah, maybe the Palis call him that, but at least he was a former terrorist as opposed to, say, Yassser Arafat, who was and is a terrorist yesterday, today and tomorrow.
As far as Shamir is concerned, he was a terrorist in anyone's reckoning: he had Lord Moyne murdered in 1944; he conducted random bombings and reprisal executions; he was killing British soldiers in [then] Palestine while Hitler was killing them in Europe, often by the same underhanded methods. Compare Menachem Begin, who had his terrorist moments, but made common cause with the British to fight the Nazis. (Many of the agents dropped into occupied Europe by the SIS and the SOE were Jews who were recruited through Begin's good offices. These people risked, and often lost, everything to defeat the evil of Nazism. Shamir sat that one out).
In the end, Shamir did indeed turn from terrorism to politics, as Begin had done before him. But his bloody history made him a polarizing figure in Israeli and regional politics. To point it out may be something Nazis do, but Nazis also believed in the law of gravity; that's because it was a fact, not a Nazi idea.
And I will concede this much on Shamir: his targets usually had some military or political nexus, even if his attacks routinely violated the laws of land warfare, and simple human decency. While that would not have been enough to save his life at the Nuremburg trials, it is very much more than the Palestinians have done. Their attacks are normally organised and planned in such a way as to maximise their bestial cruelty -- as terrorists go, old Shamir was a gentle one by PLO standards.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
Abraham Stern was captured, tried, and hung for murder, and Yizhernitzky, who took the cover of "Rabbi Shamir," was his successor, if my memory is right. He took the name Shamir permanently when he got a government position (it's a tradition there for government personnel, especially elected officers, to use a Hebrew name).
the murders of Lord Moyne (1944 November 6)
There is an excellent book on the Moyne assassination, I suspect it is long out of print, called The Deed. It is quite sympathetic to the young Sternists who carried out the attack. Shamir, of course, figures in the story. Had the British caught him he would certainly have hung and be forgotten today (the fate of his operatives).
and Count Bernadotte (1948 September 17).
Yeah, that one slipped my mind. And I just wrote that "there was a military nexus on his attacks." Bernadotte was an innocent diplomat.
You should also mention that he was one of the authors of the infamous von Pfaffen Memorandum of Januaty 1941
I haven't ever heard of this (and as you see, I am interested in pre-Independence and War of Independence activity in Israel). It sounds rather unlike him -- he and Begin were right-wing, but in the Israeli context they are like American cold-war liberals... can you provide link or a tip to a book that sources this? It strains credulity.
not a very nice guy
Not in the 1940s, no. When the British executed the Moyne assassins, he executed British hostages. He did mellow with age. Otherwise, he'd never have won election in Israel, IMHO. The Israelis (and AF Vet, I mean the Labour Party, Ben-Gurion, elected Government of Israel!) had a price on his head in 1948, too.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
Whoah, those are your words.
I thought you might accuse someone like Ted Olsen.
If you have evidence that the Israeli government, its intelligence agencies, and lots of good Israelis who think the US should cut Pollard a break for spying are financing his attorneys' appeal then you can list it here. I would not be surprised if there were some Israeli citizens who sympathized with Pollard. His information about terrorists may have saved Israeli lives. Nonetheless he betrayed his oath and his country.
Unfortunately, they are many. Before Pollard, they were usually not prosecuted (and after Pollard as well -- they were normally just removed from access, made to resign commissions, etc). If you are suggesting that I think they are mostly Jewish, I don't think they are. They are mostly greedy, and disloyal, which are human failings that know no race or religion.
If there are many you would have no trouble listing them. My experience has shown the real threat to our nation's survival is from Arabists. They despise Israel, Israelis, and Jews. Americans could perhaps turn a blind eye to that but they don't do such a good job protecting Americans either. This was the first significant foreign attack on the American mainland since 1812.
The reason that Israeli intelligence needs to spy on us, is that they know that we have information that we don't share with them, which might be very important to the survival and well-being of their country and their people. You might say that they have a fiduciary duty to do this, as do other sovereign nations.
You argue the case that some of those entrusted with INTEL cannot be trusted to protect the lives of our allies, specifically the Israelis, but not limited to them. The natural corollary to that argument is that they cannot be trusted to protect our lives either.
Given that they have an imperative to spy, they must also be seen by their active spies to be energetic and committed to the cause of captured spies...
The argument falters here. If their fundamental goal is to protect their nation against genocide then they would sacrifice spies from other countries in order to achieve that goal. Losing what little support they still have in the world would not be sacrificed for the life of one Jew who the mob wants to crucify. They have not even retrieved their own citizens from Lebanon and Iran.
Spies for the Israelis are not necessarily Jews
Can you name names and list cases ?
In the long run, Pollard didn't do himself, Israel, the US, the Jews or the goyim any good at all.
He certainly put himself at risk. His e cost other Jews clearances and oppportunities in INTEL because antiSemites and Arabists pounced on his betrayal to purge them. You can thank I simply don't know what lives he saved or took. We can all rest easier at night knowing the Arabists have been in charge ...
By this you mean my reference to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir as "former Stern Gang terrorist." Yeah, maybe the Palis call him that
Maybe ?
Ya think ?
Good thing for us we are evenhanded with the palis ... Otherwise they might target us.
Thank you for your service to our country.
Rock solid evidence there ...
Yeah, I'm tired of closet antiSemites. I prefer when they come right out in the open and say how they really feel. This soldier is not one of them but he was using rhetoric that they share so I posed the questions.
Would you mind reposting this in English? Thank you in advance.
A Stephen Green story in the Christian Science Monitor says that they returned 163 documents. As an intelligence operation they are in a tough position... for years they denied that Pollard was spying for them. Then they admitted it... or rather, the politicians did, which I'm sure the intel pros opposed.
According to the same Green story, Pollard supplied 850,000 documents in all, many of them stolen to order (one of the first things he provided was an index). Many of these have no bearing on Israel or the middle east... and were only useful to the USSR.
It is possible that the Israeli government or some organisation thereof was selling or trading the documents to Brezhnev-era Soviet spies. But it's also possible that someone involved in tasking Pollard was also betraying Israel and working for the Soviets. The Israelis also busted a number of officials who were doubling for the Russians during the 1980s, and there may have been more who were not exposed.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
Respectfully, where has this poster been anti-semitic? If he recites facts, what's the problem? Look, if Pollard sold out his country, and it resulted in harm to this country, what's wrong with revelaing the facts?
Need your help here. Why only 163 documenents out of so many? Help me out.
Respectfully, reread my comments. I said that he was not antisemitic.
You did read my comments didn't you ?
Sorry, it was garbled. The computer ate it. My dog ate it. Wait, I don't have a dog. I better retype it.
His betrayal cost other Jews their clearances or opportunities in the Intelligence agencies because antiSemites and Arabists pounced on his [Pollard's] betrayal to purge them. I simply don't know what lives Pollard saved or took. We can all rest easier at night knowing the Arabists have been in charge of our national security ...
OK, I'll accept that. Apparently there are posters that do know what American lives were lost. And you accused them of anti-semitism. Have you no shame?
You can ask Stephen Green. You could ask William Casey but he died two days before he was supposed to testify before Congress.
I don't know how many documents he transferred. He probably told them something before the plea agreement fell apart. I do know that the Arabists would want to share any information with Israel that would save Jewish lives. They have a chip on their shoulder and evil in their heart.
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