"Jew Hatred. A Minor Problem, or Overblown?"

Chronwatch ^ | 1-4-04 | Arlene Peck

[Alouette]

If I teach my kids that Tribalism is evil, am I committing an Anti-Semitic act?

It would help if you would define what you mean by "tribalism" and explain why you think it is "evil."

[gobucks]

I don't mean racism. Hitler was a racist. If I understand racism correctly, it's where certain skin colors are better than others. Racism encourages, even mandates, the murder of undesirables if my education about the history of racism is correct. Genenology is merely a technical detail to a racist I think.

On the other hand, Geneology is important to a tribalist. Knowing who was who, and when, in the bloodlines of origin is important.

Tribalism is where you view your tribe in a positive light, and other tribes, at best, in a neutral light. If you are a tribalist, you are loyal to those bloodlines you are related to, regardless of morals, religious teachings, etc, if said tribe experiences any threats, perceived or otherwise from an "alien" tribe.

Tribalism has been used to justify genocide, but it's not a necessary feature of it for any particular tribe.

That all said, current African politics greatly illuminate the problems of tribalism.

So - is teaching my kids the traditional American idea - being loyal to a tribe is evil, and will lead to war with "other" tribes - is that teaching an Anti-Semitic act?

[Alouette]

So you think that geneaology is evil? Do you think that organizations such as SCV, DAR, etc. should be outlawed? Do you think that people should not be allowed to study their family history, that they should not be allowed to learn their heritage, or to be proud they are descended from some famous person?

Is it evil to love your own family more than people you are not related to?

That said, having distinguished ancestry does not make a person authomatically more worthy than someone from a less illustrious pedigree. Judaism teaches: "A mamzer (bastard) who fears G-D and studies His Laws is more worthy than a Cohen (a descendent of the priestly clan) who is an ignoramus."

Protecting you scumbag second cousin from the law just because he is member of your extended family is NOT justified.

If you are a tribalist, you are loyal to those bloodlines you are related to, regardless of morals, religious teachings, etc, if said tribe experiences any threats, perceived or otherwise from an "alien" tribe.

I think this describes primitive societies, and to a very large degree, Arab culture. A society that does not recognize absolute morality, and sees things only in terms of "shame" and "honor" is a tribalistic society. Judaism and Christianity are not "shame and honor" cultures, but Islam still is.

It is not "anti-Jewish" to condemn "shame and honor" societies as primitive, backward and barbaric. It is "Anti-Semitic" only if you contort the definition of the word (which was invented in order to define "hatred of the Jews") to mean "hatred of Semitic people who are not Jews, i.e. Arabs." Are you afraid of being condemned as "racist" or "anti-Muslim" or "anti-Arab" if you condemn "shame and honor"-based cultures?

[gobucks]

Oh, How I WISH that were true!! My kids would report I am a total pain in the neck quite a bit. I'm hoping to give them a head start in translating so much of the propaganda out there. For example, there is a river where a young woman named Mary Jo drowned...oh, I could go on and on about my reaction to this when I read about it as a grown man. I could go on and on about the sheer tidal wave of lies I was fed as a kid by so many with an ax to grind.

So few taught that loving and preserving the truth was worthwhile. My kids are quite politically awake - but getting them to love the truth is proving to be a challenge. Being "cool" is really important, at all costs right now.

Now, about that fact of life...
What I was raised with was the idea that America is different in essence than any other country - because we disavow any tribal origin to the idea that freedom is real.

Freedom is NOT a true idea if you are a tribalist, because tribal loyalty always has dibs; that means victimization of an "alien" is always an exercisable option, and morally so.
Thus, from the American viewpoint, tribalism is an ethic that promotes the death of freedom, and is thus evil.

Is it Anti-Semitic? Of course, I don't think so...but the more I read about the conflict in the middle east, and what I SHOULD think about Arabs, esp Palst Arabs, it's clear to me that I am being sold on the idea that a. tribalism is a good thing, and b., condemning Arabs is Ok, and c., saying or thinking anything negative about Israel is pure Anti-Semitism., d. being a good tribalist means I root for Israel.


For me, this message is a recipe for losing our American, non-tribal, identity, and losing our freedom in the end.

[Alouette]

but the more I read about the conflict in the middle east, and what I SHOULD think about Arabs, esp Palst Arabs, it's clear to me that I am being sold on the idea that a. tribalism is a good thing, and b., condemning Arabs is Ok, and c., saying or thinking anything negative about Israel is pure Anti-Semitism., d. being a good tribalist means I root for Israel.

This is 100% BS. Let's deconstruct it.

• tribalism is a good thing

Arabs certainly believe that "tribalism" (the "shame and honor" world view) is a "good thing" but enlightened Westerners are repulsed by it.

• Condemning Arabs is OK

Condemning barbaric butchers who justify deliberate murder of innocents, and who hack to death their own sisters in order to preserve "family honor" is certainly OK. You think we should learn to "accept" cultures that do this?

• saying or thinking anything negative about Israel is pure Anti-Semitism.,

It's not Anti-Semitic to criticise Israel but if you find fault with everything that Israel does to defend itself from raging mobs of frenzied genocidal maniacs who want to murder Israeli citizens just because they are Jews or just non-Muslims, then you might be a tiny little bit anti-Semitic.

• being a good tribalist means I root for Israel.

Being a good tribalist means you always root for the Arabs, because they are the tribalistic society.

You can't claim "tribalism" is pure evil and then defend what the Arabs are doing.

[gobucks]

Up front, geneaology can be used for very, very evil purposes, and history teaches too brutally how. On the other hand, in proper context, it's harmless.

Well, I'm going to give a fairly detailed response to your other questions...tomorrow. After watching LSU school the Sooners, I'm beat.

Thanks for working with me on this. I appreaciate it. And, just in case, I'm not a troll. Few trolls I'm guessing have researched gun law history in Nazi Germany; I have and it's very, VERY illuminating...

[Nix 2]

Why? They do. Or is it that you'd rather we didn't tell anyone and then it would be just our own little secret? Hmmmm, Philly?

[Nix 2]

Your answer, sir. Short and sweet.

"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations. If I were an atheist of the other sect, who believe or pretend to believe that all is ordered by chance, I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization."
-John Adams, 2nd U.S. President, 1806

[rmlew]

Does blood thus define history? And, what specific group founded America? .
Ethnic heritage does matter. This country was founded by colonists from Great Britain. They created the culture and institutions. They chose to sever bonds with their motherland on the basis of priciples from the English Civil War and the Scottish Enlightenment.
All subsequent Americans became so by joining this polity.

Before I respond to the other implications of your remark, I want to be sure I understand what you mean by "blood" and it's relationship to history...for it seems you are implying that all history is merely an amalgamation of tribal histories...
Hardly. Ideology, religion, natural factors, luck, and individual initiative cannot be discounted.
However, culture has a lot to do with heritage.

Also, you imply that teaching tribalism to kids is a good thing...do I get you right? If so, that means if I teach my kids it's evil, is that wrong? Is it Anti-Semitic?
Tribalism is the human condition. From an Evolutionary psychology standpoint, we evolved in small groups of hunter gatherers. From a Biblical standpoint, tribalism has been the norm since the tower of Babel.
You can teach your kids whatever you want. They will have to deal with reality by the time they are adults.

[gobucks]

Hello there SFSPRep! I wish I could say you're not the first to comprehend and comment upon the laocoon element...but you are. Ironically, it is a famous Jewish woman that I owe my thanks to for bringing it to my attention - B. Tuchman.

What books do you recommend? I am especially interested in History books that are matter of fact, pragmatic. A favorite mainstream historian of mine is Paul Johnson - he earned my total trust after I read his Intellectuals book. What books are good "intro" books that could be read by Christian teens who are trying to make sense of all this?

Others, e.g. Peters who wrote From Time Immemorial, I have a great deal of trouble understanding, and find the rhetoric totally one-sided. Gabriel's Islam and Terrorism was an unreal book written by a Christianized Arab, who was at one time a leading Islamic professor, so I definitely recommend that; it's made me listen to any word uttered by any Koran-believing Muslim with lots of doubt. The Koran outright teaches it's OK, and in fact, it's mandated, to lie and deceive in order to convert the world to Islam. I also liked that famous Hittite guy from Columbia (Princeton?) who wrote the Arab History tome. That book alone gave me insights into middle eastern tribalism that make a lot sense. (Hebrews originated in the Middle East too....but I sense more and more I am being instructed not to see them as a tribe or group of tribes.)

Where do you find Jews and/or Arabs that are willing to talk in muted, thoughtful tones about this? Especially ones that are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about why you are speaking about this at all?

Where do you find Jews and or Arabs who say "I am an American! My citizenship is with but one country, this one!" That is what I am; I have all kinds of mongrel blood in my veins, some of it German, some of it American Indian. But I'm not "Native-American; I'm not a German-American". I am an American - someone who is willing to fight for freedom, for freedom isn't free. I had no trouble serving in our Military - fighting in the Cold War.

But when I read about Jewish kids who are born and raised here leaving the USA to serve in a Jewish Army, when I read about Muslim kids born and raised here in the USA to go and serve in a Muslim Army....it seems a lot like I am reading about people from two tribes who have decided hate is the highest good. That American anything is just a vehicle to be used to promote their side of the tribal fight. In short, I see American Freedom as an idea being ignored, attacked, and worse, laughed at.

And finally, I see that 9-11 was an event that both sides now look at matter of factly and say to themselves, "now that we have opened a new front, let's see who wins". That's what it really feels like - like the Middle East is in Ohio now. It's simply not the way I grew up; and I'm not pleased my kids are being sold on the idea that they are "good" or "bad" depending upon which side they choose.

It's all pretty frustrating.

[gobucks]

"They". I suspect not all of them looked at the suicide of those fanatics with approval.

I of course am dismayed at the pictures of the celebrations. But I'm also well aware of the reality of being an Arab in Palestine who cooperates with Israel...it's ALOT like what happened to folks who cooperated with Kurds or Shias a less than a year ago in Iraq.

So, I'm guessing a component of "they" is not heard from. Why is it a bad thing to think about this?

[Catspaw]

While you hum Kumbaya, you may want to review the definition of "Old Europe." You define it perfectly.

[gobucks]

Well said and totally a truth; (but additional truth is not mentioned - the role of Christ).

So, the short implication of your quote is, "Yes, teaching tribalism-is-evil to your kids is Anti-Semitic". True?

[Alouette]

But when I read about Jewish kids who are born and raised here leaving the USA to serve in a Jewish Army, when I read about Muslim kids born and raised here in the USA to go and serve in a Muslim Army....it seems a lot like I am reading about people from two tribes who have decided hate is the highest good.

Well, that's insulting. You sound like you already have your mind made up and you're just looking for more material to confirm what you already want to believe.

My son decided to join the IDF in order to defend our loved ones who happen to live there. How does that make hate the "highest good" in Alouette's society? We don't raise our children from birth to believe that the greatest thing they can do is murder "infidels" and we don't instruct our children to murder "infidels" by using their own bodies as weapons of mass destruction. DON'T PUT ME AND MINE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL us and you too.

[gobucks]

*sigh* I'm frustrated with this medium called English (I don't know any other) and my lack of (intelligence, wit, practice?) in using it to express myself inoffensively over THIS subject.

Alouette, please see that I'm not a moral myopic - I'm just trying to understand what to tell my kids about why some people choose to fight, and maybe die, for blood ties (tribalism), and others to choose to fight, and maybe die, over an idea. When I served in the American military, I was willing to fight for an idea - defending my freedom and my fellow Americans freedom; the idea that freedom is worth exporting, and that freedom is not reserved for certain peoples, while others are ineligible b/c of the their circumstances of birth. And please continue to give me the benefit of the doubt, for I too have a teenage son. I love him very much indeed.

I'm NOT trying to insult you, nor trying to offend any Arab moms out there either (for they could write the same thing back to me, no? - not that I would believe they are justified for feeling that way).

I don't have my mind made up; if I did, I would just be another rhetorical screamer here, using invective to turn hearts to my point of view.

I just don't understand how my country, the USA, is good enough to live in, good enough to raise kids in, but not good enough to teach my kids to fight for. I just don't understand.

"My son decided to join the IDF in order to defend our loved ones who happen to live there. How does that make hate the "highest good" in Alouette's society?"

Because it seems the decision to fight on your son's part is rooted in the idea of fighting for his tribe. It does not seem that your son is fighting for an idea. Your son, in effect, is setting an example to my son. And it is a distinctly new kind of example, in my experience. Should I teach my son to reject military service in the American military because our relatives overseas are under threat? Should I teach him to take oaths of service to another nation, oaths that may conflict with the oaths all American military service people are required to make? How is that good for America?

Furthermore, the example you set for me as a parent is that I teach my son that certain tribes, based on the homicidal/suicidal/insane actions of a minority, are genetically evil and inferior, and not to be seen as equal to my "tribe". How is that good for the American idea of freedom? How does that encourage American kids to be willing to fight for freedom?

Alouette - my growing concern, and it is growing, and it feels totally different than what I felt during the Cold War, is for my country's identity, and thus my own personal freedom. I believed what my 2nd grade teacher taught me about why so much death was in Europe - tribalism, which led to nationalism, which led to "justifiable" hate, which led to "justifiable" killing. And which, I believe, underlies the balkanized thinking rampant in Europe even today.

BTW, if I understand what you are saying, am I'm totally dead wrong to see Jews as a tribe, or that they behave in a "tribal" manner? Am I an Anti-Semite if I think the Jews, generally speaking, behave like a tribe?

(Now, for what its worth, this is a thread about the causes of Jew Hatred, after all. I'm not interested in promoting Jew Hatred, I'm interested in the pathway to ending it; I'm also interested in the pathway to ending Arab-hatred; I deeply suspect those two pathways have something in common; I deeply suspect that pathway involves making hard choices about what I say to my kids about what to believe - about tribalism and freedom.)

All that said, I have to hand it to you; your tone could have been so much more condemning toward me; thanks for listening the way you have. Please don't throw up your hands regarding me...:). (I spent alot of time in Ohio cornfields as a boy.;))

[gobucks]

Ok, it's late afternoon on a Sunday, yesterday. I'm screaming my head off in triumph as a fantastic interception is made. Oh, boy, oh boy is that Seattle qb going to have the words "and we're gonna score!!" echo in his mind year after year. It will either kill his spirit, or Seattle will be formidable next year.

And lo and Behold, I find in you a fellow fan!! Now how on earth does that leave room for me to be described as the perfect definition of "Old Europe"? In short, ipso facto, it doesn't, and is not possible.

I absolutely detest Kumbaya; the bars of that tune have not passed my lips since my Methodist camp days back in the 70's; and I hated it then too....

[Alouette]

Am I an Anti-Semite if I think the Jews, generally speaking, behave like a tribe?

I think that yes, you are an Anti-Semite if you persist in force-fitting "generally speaking" Jews into your "evil tribalists" paradigm while at the same time trying to avoid describing the followers of Islam in the same way.

the example you set for me as a parent is that I teach my son that certain tribes, based on the homicidal/suicidal/insane actions of a minority, are genetically evil and inferior, and not to be seen as equal to my "tribe". How is that good for the American idea of freedom? How does that encourage American kids to be willing to fight for freedom?

That is NOT what I teach my kids. I don't teach my kids that Arabs are genetically evil and inferior, but Arabs do teach their kids that Jews are "pigs and monkeys". I do teach my kids that an entire society which raises its children to believe that it is the highest "good" to murder "infidels" in pizza parlors and schoolbuses is EVIL and must be STOPPED. These are not the actions of a "tiny minority" as you have deluded yourself into believing. This is part and parcel of the education that Arab Muslim children receive.

Your tap-dancing moral equivalence, and your refusal to recognize what is truly evil as EVIL, instead trying to dance around with this "tribalism" thing, is repugnant to me. BTW can you explain why Americans are in Iraq, if, according to you, we are fighting for an "idea" and not against evil people who are trying to destroy us?

You still have not explained why it is morally wrong to want to protect one's own family and loved ones. That should be a no-brainer.

[Catspaw]

Well, the Palestinians in question, the ones celebrating the night of 9/11/2001, were doing their celebrating in Green Bay, Wisconsin. That's where I live. They don't live here anymore.

As word spread as to what they did on that night of horror, people who knew about it--and it was witnessed by police and a number of people in the neighborhood and passersby--didn't stop there for gas anymore.

Prior to that time, I stopped there regularly. I even ran into their older brother, who tried to explain they were "hotheads"...and then launched into an antisemitic rant, not just against Israel, but Jews in general. (And the older brother was the calm, rational one.) I just let him rant.

And he wondered why he had trouble making friends.

As for the Packers, the town is still celebrating. As a team owner (I own one share of stock), I'm overjoyed.