Unruly Students Facing Arrest, Not Detention

NY Times ^ | January 4, 2004 | SARA RIMER

[Syncro]

...went through 12 years of elementary/junior high/high school without once ever seeing a policeman inside a school building, let alone having a student arrested.

We had a rent-a-cop whom we dubbed "Sheriff John" after a kids program on TV back in the day. (my day, your day lol)

He was a great source of amuzement for us.

[ladylib]

This type of thing is going on in Annapolis High School. A newly appointed principal (black and apparently plays the race card from what people say) from the troubled Prince Georges County school system comes to a school (really two schools in one, where there are many mariginally performing blacks, but also very wealthy, high-performing white students), and throws her weight around -- to her detriment. There is a movement to get rid of this woman, and parents have set up a very uncomplimentary website:

http://home.microsoft.com/access/autosearch.asp?p=save+annapolis+high+school

What is effective in one school district is not necessarily effective in another, not that this woman was effective in Prince Georges County -- to the contrary.

[ladylib]

Zero-tolerance policies teach kids that government school officials are idiots and not worth the money they scam from the public trough. Might not be a bad thing.....

[freepatriot32]

the juges that are bitching are the problem the have the power to say hety this is a school matter not criminial case dismissed with prejudice then when they do that for every single case the principles wil l stop calling the cops

[FITZ]

It depends on the seriousness of what they're having for zero-tolerance. If a kid brings drugs to sell at school or is involved in a gang fight or gang violence --- just get him out. I think schools should be for the kids who are motivated to learn, who have some clue why they are there. Kids there to disrupt the learning of others should leave.

[FITZ]

I myself believe that public schooling should NOT be compulsary

This is much of the problem --- school is compulsary, many of the kids aren't going to learn, they don't wish to learn, they have no desire at all to be at school ---- they start causing problems --- leading to zero-tolerance policies. It would be better to let those that aren't going to school to learn just to drop-out or give them alternative programs like vocational training.

[FITZ]

How do you encourage good parenting, and what do you do with the kids who just weren't lucky enough to get it?

Most kids who don't have good parents are just out of luck --- some might be naturally good, motivated kids who will take an opportunity like having half way good teachers and end up doing well --- but if they go home to neglect, drunkeness, abuse and whatever else --- their chances are slim.

That's why I agree with the way they do alternative schools here --- if the parents are involved or willing to become involved, the kid gets a second chance --- the class sizes are smaller, the setting is more controlled. If the parents know their kid is causing big trouble at school and they don't care to do anything at all --- it's pretty much hopeless.

[neverdem]

Regarding your tagline, maybe with Tancredo you could get conservative justices, if you believe the polls regarding attitudes about illegal aliens. Who attacked us?

[buzzyboop]

From the article: Although few statistics are available, anecdotal evidence suggests that such cases are on the rise.

Just how much "anecdotal" evidence is there? The NYSlimes believe anecdotes ae sufficient in a story like this, but not for any number of stories regarding student achievement? The examples seem pretty rare, and smack of the liberal mod-op of drawing a conclusion, and then scavenging for "facts" that support the conclusion. My conclusion --> this story is bogus.

[Paul C. Jesup]

You still don't get it. Zero-tolerance was NEVER about drugs, that was just the cover story. It is about lack of responsiblity and laziness on part of those who should do their jobs, but instead they choose to take the easy, harmful way (to the kids) and have a one catch all rule with a punishment that was either exspellment and/or arrest; no excuses, even if you are innocent of what you are accuse of doing, or you were defending yourself.

Zero-tolerance is finding someone guilty on accusation ALONE and dening them the right to defend themselves against said accusation.

Zero-tolerance goes against one of the most important fondations of this country; "Innocent until PROVEN guilty."

Teach children that they have no freedoms, no rights whatsoever is going to kill the spirit of this country FASTER than anything else there is.

[neverdem]

To me it sounds you just want to shoot the messenger, regardless of whether the message is true or not. From what I've read, in the cities and increasingly in the suburbs, it's true.

[logan]

It's why the end of corporal punishment has inevitably led to this.

Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time.

As for rebelliousness, you're right that it's not an innate human quality in all situations, but it is a natural reaction to force. Force engenders response. My experience of public school was an environment that required you to do a lot of things that were patently unnecessary; this created a desire to assert ones self in response.

And in my experience, especially again wrt public school, I was smarter than a lot of the adults, or at least it appeared that way given the restrictions placed on how we were allowed to interact. I feel that high school is full of adults who never realized their full potential, and students can sense this.

[WOSG]

Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? It's absense indicates a lack of moral rigor ie, we foolishly think the comfort and happiness is more important to the young than other things, like moral development. I say otherwise: Their moral development is important enough that we shouldnt exclude forms of discpline that work to shape young minds and create better habits and actions, even if it brings discomfort on kids (or for that matter adults. It's the adults who are too blame for getting squeamish or allowing their own lax moral standards to inflict similar laxness on kids.) It's not that you need to paddle that much, but failing to recognize its utility in some cases is a 'red flag' for where we have gone wrong wrt raising kids.

I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time.

Where do you get the silly idea that respect and physical discipline are mutually exclusive? It's out of respect for kids that you want to do what will make them the best possible human beings. Lack of discpline is disrespectful for the potential of children. If you never ever corrected a child at all during their life so they never learned right from wrong, you know what that would be? child abuse.

Treat kids as adults in the sense that they are responsible for their own actions and will suffer consequences if they do wrong, and you will raise responsible human beings who respect their own selves as well as others.

And in my experience, especially again wrt public school, I was smarter than a lot of the adults, ... As someone with 150 IQ, I see nothing unusual about that. It's a good lesson for future life: You respect people whatever relative 'smarts' are. Just because you might be smarter than the "boss" doesnt mean you can mock him and keep your job! :-) ... or at least it appeared that way given the restrictions placed on how we were allowed to interact. Thanks for making my point, alas. What is unusual is our obsession with trying to "justify" authority rather than simply saying that authority eg of school officials can and should deserve respect as authority figures. It's not the schools business nor need to justify every rule to every smart-alecky kid in the schoolyard.

My experience of public school was an environment that required you to do a lot of things that were patently unnecessary; this created a desire to assert ones self in response. And my experience was that asserting oneself could be constructive or destructive ... and it was essential to discpline away destructive behaviors or things got out of hand.

[logan]

It's not that you need to paddle that much, but failing to recognize its utility in some cases is a 'red flag' for where we have gone wrong wrt raising kids.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I don't believe that physically beating people is necessary to have a well ordered society, and in most cases it is counterproductive because inevitably that power is abused by petty tyrants, doing damage to the innocent and creating real trouble resistance.

Where do you get the silly idea that respect and physical discipline are mutually exclusive?

They're not, but corporal punishment represents a different kind of power dynamic between an administration and students (or parents and children). Corporal punishment sends the message that students should obey to avoid pain and discomfort. A better way to create discipline is to have an administration which students understand is furthering their interests, and respect out of their own enlightened self-interest.

What is unusual is our obsession with trying to "justify" authority rather than simply saying that authority eg of school officials can and should deserve respect as authority figures.

I couldn't disagree more. This is what seperates us from the facists, friend. The belief in authority should be respected "just because" is no good; subservance to power without reason or rationale is dangerous, and not an indeal I think we should indoctrinate our youth with.

[XBob]

25 - "but you can trace the problem with discipline in schools back to the 1960's "

I think it can be traced to the late baby boomers, and Dr. Spock's book in 1950, on raising children, which became the rage. 'Don't spank or discipline the children' - the results of which started showing up in the 60's in the lack of discipline in the parents of the children now in school.

Bring back spanking. !!!!

[XBob]

28 -"Alternative School was called "Reform School" in my day.

Reading, writing and arithmetic
taught to the tune of a hickory stick.

Worked well until the fifties, then liberalism started running amok.

School consolidation removed neighborhood schools and destroyed communities. But then again you have much better football teams. :("

great points.

[XBob]

46 - What ever happened to the vocational programs we had when I was a kid, where the less scholastically competent students would go to school for a few hours of 'basics', in the moring, then to a job for 'training' in the afternoon?

Don't they have those anymore?

[XBob]

logan - 54 - "It's why the end of corporal punishment has inevitably led to this.
Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time."

It appears you never learned a major lesson in life - the longer you fail to do something which needs to be done, because it irks you, the more time you will spend doing it, and the more time you will spend being irked.

EG - rebel in school and you should be made to stay after school - spending longer in school than if you conformed.

don't study in school because it irks you, and you will have to go to summer school - spending longer in school.

Don't go to summer school - and the longer you will take to graduate, for each grade you fail.

The longer you sas your parents, the longer the spanking should be.

The longer you misbehave, the longer your confinement in your room should be.

The more you sas your boss, the longer your unemployment will be (no good ecommndations).

Your attitudes are what is wrong with our youth, and you are condemning your children your future.