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Pro-Gay Chicago Catholic Priests Send Open Letter Ripping "Vile and Toxic" Rhetoric of the Vatican
Catholic Citizens of Illinois ^ | 12/22/2003 | Shamus Toomey

Posted on 12/23/2003 8:18:05 AM PST by marshmallow

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To: 68 grunt
When you can mix truth with hatred, like the history of priests, contrary positions, stale rhetoric and intolerance

It's a very selective "truth," one which sees all the fault in the world in the object of one's hatred.

And anti-Semitic bigots, like anti-Catholic ones, have their own set of supposed "truths" to point to.

People are bigots because they feel more comfortable that way. It gives them someone to blame for their own inadequacies and failures, and for the inadequacies and failures of groups with whom they identify. And it relieves them of the obligation to actually think, and grow up, and deal with a complex world like an intelligent adult.

61 posted on 12/23/2003 9:39:26 AM PST by Campion
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To: sinkspur
You paraphrased his statement earlier in a way that I feel distorted its meaning. Note that he actually uses the words "can seem." which you omitted earlier, but is essential to the overall meaning of his statement.
62 posted on 12/23/2003 9:39:30 AM PST by B Knotts (Go 'Nucks!)
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To: sinkspur
This pastoral concern is simply that gays don't like it if the church actually comes out and takes a moral position on their sexuality.

They'll never, ever, ever solve that one. They just want to please everybody.

63 posted on 12/23/2003 9:40:28 AM PST by Taliesan
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To: biblewonk
I only say it because our little fundie church of about 20 males has almost 20 different views on the combined exercises and doctrines of: predestination, alcohol, politics, TV, homeschooling, and gambling.<<<

I think this is O.K. as long as the church body believes in the basic truths. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, one baptism for the remission of sins . . .
64 posted on 12/23/2003 9:42:20 AM PST by Roughneck (". . .For there is going to come a time when people won't listen to the truth. . .")
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To: Taliesan
>either we let homosexuals become priests, or we have to oil up the thumb screw again

Eliminate priests.
Have the Pope tell the whole globe
that all Christians are

servants of Jesus,
and that the whole notion of
some Christians being

on Heaven's fast-track
was dubious from the start.
Problem goes away...

65 posted on 12/23/2003 9:43:02 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: Taliesan
The Inquisition used force.

"The Inquisition" is a misnomer, there were several Inquisitions. Some used force, and some didn't. The term inquisitio simply means a particular kind of (Roman) investigative legal procedure. The concept and the name came into English common law as the "inquest".

ArrogantBustard is not being dense at all. He's trying to get people who habitually complain about Rome's "tyranny" out of one side of their mouth, and her "laxity" out of the other, to see the contradictory nature of their position(s).

66 posted on 12/23/2003 9:43:27 AM PST by Campion
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To: B Knotts
Note that he actually uses the words "can seem." which you omitted earlier, but is essential to the overall meaning of his statement.

If they "can seem", then they "do seem." And George recognizes this as a pastoral problem.

67 posted on 12/23/2003 9:43:54 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Old Professer
If that's what you call respect, then we have no further use for pity.

The Cardinal calls for respect too. Perhaps you should ask him.

68 posted on 12/23/2003 9:45:39 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: Old Professer
If that's what you call respect, then we have no further use for pity.

The Cardinal calls for respect too. Perhaps you should ask him.

69 posted on 12/23/2003 9:45:41 AM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: theFIRMbss
Eliminate priests.

The word "priest" comes from the Greek "presbyter," meaning "elder". The office of elder is mentioned in the NT, and has existed in the Church from the earliest times. The Pope can no more "eliminate priests" than he can eliminate Jesus.

The idea that priests are "on Heaven's fast-track" is not Catholic teaching. Scripture says that teachers are judged more severely. Does that sound like being "on Heaven's fast-track" to you?

70 posted on 12/23/2003 9:46:23 AM PST by Campion
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To: Campion; BibChr
Courtesy ping.
71 posted on 12/23/2003 9:47:24 AM PST by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Campion
especially the annulment of JFK's 1st marriage

Do you really mean Teddy, or do you have material for a book here? ;-)

Nope, it was JFK. My Grandfather was a staunch (R), and worked for the IRS in the 50's to 70's.

He dug and found that JFK was trashed at a party and got married to a local chippie. Papa Pro-Hitler Joe got Cushing to have the marriage annulled and sealed!

There are books already on the subject, but the proof is either in the diocese in Boston, The Vatican, or at the bottom of Boston Harbor.

72 posted on 12/23/2003 9:47:26 AM PST by Itzlzha (The avalanche has already started...it is too late for the pebbles to vote!)
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To: sinkspur
Well, you seemed to be implying that he stated that the Church, in fact, in using the language it does, has no respect for people with this disordered orientation, when what he actually was saying (or so it seems to me) was that it only seems that way, and the pastoral problem is not in what the Church states, but in creating understanding of what the teaching actually is.

That is not a trivial difference.

He also strongly implied that the priests who are behind this open letter need to reexamine their own fidelity to the Church's teaching.

73 posted on 12/23/2003 9:47:48 AM PST by B Knotts (Go 'Nucks!)
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To: marshmallow
Every one of these guys should be out of a job. Today.
74 posted on 12/23/2003 9:48:23 AM PST by livius
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To: marshmallow
List of signatories appended as a service to Chicago area Freepers who may wish to review their Mass arrangements in the light of this letter.

Thank you -- very enlightening. A couple of them are near me, but I go only to parishes/shrines whose priests I know are loyal to the Church.

75 posted on 12/23/2003 9:49:12 AM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: Roughneck
I think this is O.K. as long as the church body believes in the basic truths. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, one baptism for the remission of sins . . .

Yes I agree. There are a few more basics that are needed but the things I mention are not supposed to be make or break issues.

76 posted on 12/23/2003 9:49:24 AM PST by biblewonk (I must try to answer all bible questions.)
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To: sinkspur
Let me attempt to clarify.

The Cardinal is attempting to elucidate the nature of the priests' complaint. He puts forward essentially two possibilities. The first is to do with the pastoral problem of dealing with homosexuals. He acknowledges this as a legitimate and serious concern. He would like to talk with them, if this is indeed their concern. He does not state that this is their concern. Rather he hopes it is.

Possibility #2, is that the priests have a fundamental problem with Church doctrine. Specifically, they may reject the concept that sodomy is sinful. He regards this as extremely serious and even more requiring of a talk.

I think most people on this thread, including me, believe that #2 is the real source of the priests' anger. That thought is also in the Cardinal's mind.

Do you disagree?

77 posted on 12/23/2003 9:50:18 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: biblewonk
Catholics are always claiming that there are 20,000 different protestant denominations. I have always maintained that there are as many different Catholic denominations are there are Catholic churches.

Not really. You either believe in the doctrine of the Church, or you don't. So that makes only two types of Catholics: believers and non-believers.

78 posted on 12/23/2003 9:51:49 AM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: BlessedBeGod
Biblewonk, to be consistent, would probably have to argue that Jesus founded 12 different churches, one of which betrayed him.
79 posted on 12/23/2003 9:54:03 AM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
Oh, I see, then it wasn't a dichotomy at all. Just a tactical exaggeration.

I take your etymology lesson; I'm sure it's an important point in an actual discussion of earlier times.

This appears to be a letter from this century, from a couple dozen RC priests in one city. So let's cut through the fog. When the church can't remove a priest who works against her declared positions, she is at the least LAX.

The further question is why is she so lax? To an outsider, it looks like simple cowardice.

80 posted on 12/23/2003 9:54:29 AM PST by Taliesan
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