Hamas says Jews must leave as truce talks fail

Once it was Palestine. Then it became Israel. Now the Palestinians want it to be Palestine again.

This statement shows an utter lack of knowledge of the history of Israel. It was "Palestine" when the Romans gave it that name after the Bar Kochba rebellion was crushed in 135. The name "Palestine" was also what the Crusaders called it and what the British/League of Nations called it. However, it wasn't Palestine under Turkish, Marmaluke, or Ummayad (Arab) rule.

Further, there has never been an independent nation or even an autonomous region called Palestine. There was no people called "Palestinians" until after Israel was created. They are Arabs who have created a new national identity for political reasons.

Both peoples consider that they have a God-given right to occupy this place, to the detriment of the other

Oh, B.S. Let's forget religion for a minute. The Jewish people have been persecuted throughout both the Christian, Roman, and Muslim lands since the Romans decided Jews were rebellious troublemakers around the year 60. The British, showing some rare wisdom, decided the only place for the Jewish people was in their historic homeland. The British government SIGNED AN AGREEMENT with the Hashemite (Arab) king of Iraq and Jordan in 1919 in which the Arabs AGREED to a Jewish state with a border at the Jordan River.

In 1936-37, the bloodiest year of the conflict, 6,000 Jews in British Palestine died at the hands of their Arab neighbors. There was no occupation, no State of Israel, nothing except the age old hatred of the Jews. The Peel Commission then recommended dividing the land based on demographics -- Jews should rule where Jews mainly lived, and Arabs should rule where Arabs mainly lived. Makes sense, doesn't it? The Jews agreed, the Arabs did not. In 1947 the United Nations voted to partition Palestine based on the same principles. The Jews agreed and the Arabs did not. The Arabs attacked Israel the minute the state was declared. The sad truth is that nothing has changed since.

Israelis are mainly secular (about 70% of the population). It has nothing to do with G-d for secular Israelis. It has to do with being allowed to live in peace SOMEWHERE, in this case where two world bodies (The League of Nations and the United Nations) both recognized as the homeland for the Jews and the center of Jewish culture since biblical times. This is why Israel is now considering a unilateral withdrawal from territory occupied by 3.5 million Palestinian Arabs. All Israelis want to do is live in peace and security.

The Palestinians, for their part, aren't terribly religious either. Sure, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are Islamist, but Fatah is not. Many use Islam for political reasons only.

This is not, and has never been, a religious conflict.

Nobody questions whether or not French people have a right to France or Germans have a right to Germany. Jews, OTOH, have no right to Judea. Where do you think the name "Jew" came from anyway? We've also been called Israelites, yet our right to Israel is also questioned.

Sorry, no. We're not going anywhere. We don't want to "occupy land to the detriment" of Palestinian Arabs. Ask the 1.3 million Arabs in Israel proper, most of whom are loyal to Israel and enjoy the highest living standard in the Arab world. All we want is the right to live in our homes. My family was in Israel, or Palestine if you prefer, long before 1948. In 1854 Jerusalem had a MAJORITY JEWISH population under Ottoman rule, decades before the first immigration of European Jews even began. Tell me: why should it be "Palestine again" when it wasn't "Palestine" in 1854?

it was home to a large number of Arabs. As it still is today. And if those Arabs who now live in refugee camps still lived there, they would constitute a majority.

Oh ignorant one... many of those Arabs moved in the same time the Zionist immigrants moved in during the first half of the 20th century. Why? The Jews took an arid land and irrigated it. We built cities and created jobs and Arabs came into British Palestine looking for work from US.

770,000 Palestinians fled Israel in 1948. Why? Grand Mufti Husseini, their leader before Arafat, told them to so that the conquering Arab armies could push the Jews into the sea. When that failed to happen Arab countries drove out 900,000 Jews, far more than the number of Palestinian refugees. Israel resettled the Jewish refugees from Arab countries, plus many more from the Soviet Union, the Holocaust survivors, Ethiopia, and so on. Why didn't the Arabs resettle their smaller number of refugees?

The answer is simple: they let their own people suffer in camps to use as a political tool against Israel.

Tell me, what should happen to the Jewish refugees from Arab countries if you allow the grandchildren and great grandchildren of these Palestinian "refugees" come home? Should Poland be forced to take in Germans expelled after World War II? Should Belarus be forced to take in Poles expelled at the same time? Should the borders of Europe be redrawn? This is why the E.U. does not support the Palestinian on the refugee issue. What was done 60 years ago cannot be undone.

Are you saying the Holocaust would never have happened had Israel been in existence?

Yes, indeed. Hitler initially wanted to expel his Jewish population, not exterminate it. No nation would allow the German Jews in. The British denied access to Palestine. This is all very well documented. THIS IS PRECISELY WHY ISRAEL MUST CONTINUE TO EXIST. Besides, it's home, and who the f*** are you to tell me I have no right to live in my home? My house was built by my grandfather in 1926. It is legally mine. No Arab holds title to it.

They're fighting over L-A-N-D. Using tactics which are inhuman and barbaric.

WRONG AGAIN. Israel is fighting for survival. The Palestinians blow up innocents with suicide bombers and use inhuman tactics. Israel, OTOH, takes every possible step to avoid civillian casualties.

This materialism can also be seen in the Jewish attitude toward the Messiah.

What would you know of Jewish attitudes towards our messiah?

Someone who would restore the kingdom to Israel. But Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world." As you may know, this did not sit well with the Jews.

Jesus, at least to Jews, was no messiah. Sorry, just because we don't share your religious beliefs does not mean we should be kicked out of our homes and off our land.

Look what I've gotten myself into ping

You've read way to much into what I said, but I do agree with much of what you write. Firstly however, let me clear up a misunderstanding. When I wrote "They're fighting over L-A-N-D. Using tactics which are inhuman and barbaric., you seem to have interpreted this as referring to Israelis. It doesn't. I was referring to the tactics used by the Jihadists/Palestinians in using suicide bombers etc.

Secondly, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I want Israel to be dissolved and I do agree absolutely with this statement which you made The Palestinians, for their part, aren't terribly religious either. Sure, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are Islamist, but Fatah is not. Many use Islam for political reasons only. This is not, and has never been, a religious conflict.

In fact, that was the very point of my original post. That this conflict is over land. Not religion. So we agree on some things.

Where I take issue is with this statement What was done 60 years ago cannot be undone. History should teach you that that is a recipe for future trouble. War after war has started because of perceived injustices carried over from a previous conflict. You state Should Poland be forced to take in Germans expelled after World War II? The answer is definitely "yes" if and I emphasize "if" they wish to return. Why on earth should an injustice not be righted? Do the Palestinians want to return? I think the answer is "yes" isn't it? Although your post suggests that they don't, are only there to embarass Israel and all left voluntarily. This is a stretch, I believe.

However, I want to thank you for a most informative post. It has prompted me to do a little more research on this subject and maybe I'll get back with you when I've read a bit more on this subject. I'm in no position to argue many of the points you make, though many don't ring true.

Looks like you have the facts lined up. The problem is that the American media have yet to do the area justice in coverage. Then again all of the news agencies just want to blurb news out without any background. No background means no context so the people just agree with whatever they happen to be watching or listening. It's a few rare people who are actually moved to do any type of reseach.

This area and issue is important to the world, but few fail to see it that way.

One poster opined that there would be a high probability of a nuclear exchange. I disagree. In the most extreme, I could see one of these terror states like Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc lobbing a biological weapon into Israel. Whether the response would be nuke or not no one will no for sure until it happens.

Do the Palestinians want to return? I think the answer is "yes" isn't it?

The "Palestinians" are discriminated heavily in the other nations they occupy. Syria has been especially harsh and will not even allow them more than tents to live in for the most part.

The Arabs incited violence and did get their people to mostly leave that area, promising that they would be able to return to that area shortly. Israel proceeded to hand them their butt. Then the arabs mostly failed in taking care of those they used in the politics. To this day they are still used to fight Israel. I feel bad for what is probably an average pali, someone trying to eek out a living while their national leaders use them as nothing more than chess pieces in an insane political war that they will not ever win.

If the leaders cared about the people then Arafat would not have billions to himself while his people live in poor conditions. By keeping them poor and using propaganda, they have an army of young jihadists willing to fight this war.

First, I'll apologize for anything in your previous posts which I misunderstood and which you have since clarified. I'm glad to see that you are willing to debate intelligently and that you aren't merely one of the handful or Arab apologists who appear from time to time.

I'm going to concentrate on the points of disagreement, not the points where we agree. This isn't meant to be argumentative, but rather to let you see where I'm coming from or to give you more to research :)

Where I take issue is with this statement What was done 60 years ago cannot be undone. History should teach you that that is a recipe for future trouble. War after war has started because of perceived injustices carried over from a previous conflict.

Perhaps, but to undo what was done 58 years ago, when, for example, the map of Europe was redrawn after World War II, would force the mass migration of millions of people, most of whom weren't even born when the changes were made. My maternal grandmother was born in Brelitovsk, which was Poland in the early part of the century. It's Belarus today, and all the Poles are gone and so is pretty much the entire Jewish population. Was that an injustice? Certainly. However, trying to reverse that injustice after all this time would cause an even greater injustice.

In the case of Germans expelled from what is now Poland and the Czech Republic, my only comment would be that there is a cost to starting a war, killing people, and then losing. That the Nazis/Germans paid a cost in territory in 1945 and that formerly warring peoples were separated seems to me to be just, resonable, and perhaps the best that could be done in a very bad situation. The same, IMHO, applies to Palestinian Arabs.

Do the Palestinians want to return? I think the answer is "yes" isn't it? Although your post suggests that they don't, are only there to embarass Israel and all left voluntarily. This is a stretch, I believe.

They are left not to embarras Israel, but rather to destroy Israel. That is a huge difference. Yes, many if not most want to return. The result would be the end of Israel as a Jewish state and the death and/or expulsion of over 5 million Jews, many of whom were in turn expelled by Arab countries. This is your idea of correcting injustice? Sorry, I want no part of this sort of justice. The Palestinian refugees must be resettled, but not within Israel. I understand where you are coming from, and in a utopia where everyone got along it could work and would be the most fair and equitable solution. We don't live in utopia.

I'm in no position to argue many of the points you make, though many don't ring true.

If you provide specifics of what "doesn't ring true" I'll be happy to provide you with sources and references. You are, after all, talking about the history of my country, my people.

I think one has to distinguish here, between the redrawing of borders on an entire continent and the question of Palestinian refugees. There is an issue of scale which makes the former entirely impractical while the latter may not necessarily be so.

With respect to the formation of Israel and the partition of Palestine, I understood Arab objection to be based on the fact that the Partition Plan granted 55 percent of Palestine to the Jews, who at that time comprised only 30 percent of the population, and who owned a mere 6 percent of the land. Furthermore, wasn't there an issue of government and who would lead it? Didn't the Arabs object to a Jewish government when they (the Arabs) formed a majority?

Set me straight here.

I think one has to distinguish here, between the redrawing of borders on an entire continent and the question of Palestinian refugees. There is an issue of scale which makes the former entirely impractical while the latter may not necessarily be so.

I think it is imminently more practical to redraw the borders of Europe on a massive scale than it is to allow the Palestinians into Israel. In 2003 Germans are unlikely to go to war with Poles, and Poles are unlikely to kill Belarussians. Palestinians would, without a doubt, murder or expel the Jewish population if the took control. DOn't believe it? Look what happened to the Jews of every Arab country. In 1948 there were 900,000 Jews in the Arab world. Today there are less than 8,000, and most would leave if their governments didn't force them to stay. Look what has happened to the surviving Jewish community in Iraq (all 32 of them) since the war there. Most immediately immigrated to Israel.

With respect to the formation of Israel and the partition of Palestine, I understood Arab objection to be based on the fact that the Partition Plan granted 55 percent of Palestine to the Jews, who at that time comprised only 30 percent of the population, and who owned a mere 6 percent of the land.

Incorrect. The British mandate of Palestine comprised modern Jordan and Israel. The vast majority was separated to form an Arab state in 1922. The rest was to go to Israel. The Peel Commission partition plan (1937) gave Jews 18% of the land. The larger percentage given in 1947 by the U.N. that you claim includes the area that was to remain under joint or international control: Jerusalem and it's environs. Finally, the U.N. was dividing British Palestine according to the actual demographics of the time. Also, where did you get your 6% ownership figure? The PLO website?

All of this is besides the point. A smaller Israel would never have satisfied the Arabs. ANY ISRAEL, no matter how tiny, was unacceptable. The 1936-37 Arab riots killed 6,000 Jews. What was the excuse then? Too much land to a Jewish state? There was no Jewish state? The Hebron Massacre (1929) which resulted in the destruction of the ancient Jewish community in that city had to do with what? Since 1920 Grand Mufti Husseini was warning that the Jews would destroy al-Aqsa, that the Jews would murder Arbas, and so on. This was all stirred up with lies because the Arabs could not tolerate Jews in their midst or ANY future Jewish state.

Furthermore, wasn't there an issue of government and who would lead it? Furthermore, wasn't there an issue of government and who would lead it? Didn't the Arabs object to a Jewish government when they (the Arabs) formed a majority?

As I said, the lines were based on demographics. The 1947 U.N. proposed borders of Israel would have resulted in a Jewish majority in Israel. Besides, you forget that the 1917 Balfour Declaration and subsequent League of Nations resolution promised ALL of Palestine west of the Jordan to the Jewish people.

Israel and the occupied territories constitute 0.1% of the land in the Middle East. Arab lands constitute 99.9%. Tell me why the Jewish people should not live in their historic homeland on that 0.1% of land.

Well you could express that figure as a percentage of the whole planet and it would look even more minuscule. But that's really not the issue.

To summarize your reply, you claim that no Israeli state, irrespective of size, would have been acceptable to the Palestinians at the time of partition and that they would kill you all if they returned. These are non-negotiable-type arguments and essentially impossible to refute. They can be used to override any statistics or figures which one could put forward and so I suspect we are at the end of the line here.

It's been interesting to talk with you. I hope that you may soon enjoy the peace and security which you desire. Stay safe and well.

"Why don't the Palis establish a state in Trans-Jordan?"

I didn't think the Jordanians wanted them either, must be tough for a ruthless , murders lot like them to not be loved or welcomed anywhere.....