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Science by popular vote
Washington Times ^ | Thursday, December 4, 2003 | By Henry I. Miller

Posted on 12/04/2003 1:47:14 AM PST by JohnHuang2

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:11:01 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

"How can you tell whether a whale is a mammal or a fish?" a teacher asks her third-grade class.

"Take a vote?" pipes up one of the pupils.

This idea might be amusing coming from a child, but it's a lot less funny when applied by governments to the formulation of complex policies that involve science and technology. And it's an approach increasingly common around the world.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: crevolist; environment; farming; junkscience; science
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Thursday, December 4, 2003

Quote of the Day by Pukin Dog

1 posted on 12/04/2003 1:47:14 AM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
Bookmarked and bumped.

Science is not democratic...Legislatures cannot repeal laws of nature

It's frightening how many people cannot comprehend this simple fact.

Remember how the Soviets would plant grain in snow because the Communist bureaucrats declared it to be the right time to plant?

2 posted on 12/04/2003 1:54:59 AM PST by petuniasevan (Stop by Rudy's Russian Foul Weather Shoppe -- Rudolph the Red knows rain gear!!!)
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To: petuniasevan
Remember how the Soviets would plant grain in snow because the Communist bureaucrats declared it to be the right time to plant?

LOL.

All kidding aside, I have to admit that I have never encountered a British person who didn't know that a whale is a mammal. I will, however, share with you some of the whoppers that I have witnessed while here:

I was shopping at Spar (kind of like a 7-11) picking up some things. The girl who was at the till lived on the same estate as I did and we recognized, so we struck up a conversation. She asked me where in the US I was from. "Texas." She asked me where Texas was. I told her it was in the south, in the middle...between Louisiana and New Mexico, and under Oklahoma, directly north of Mexico. She didn't know where any of those other places were. I suggested to her that she could look it up in an atlas if she was that interested. She asked me what an atlas was for. I told her it was a book of maps. She asked why someone would want to "read" a book of maps. Ugh.

A colleague of mine was cackling about a tabloid's claim that 90% of Americans that they polled could not pick out Iraq on a map. I told him this could not possibly be true and that I'd never met someone who couldn't tell me where Iraq was. He told me that I must know the 10 smartest people in America. I hit the internet and found a map of the world with the borders drawn but no country or city names printed on it. I printed out ten copies of this and handed them out to the ten colleagues closest to my desk (this included the one who thought Americans were stupid). The results: 0 got it right. 1 thought that Iraq was Poland. 4 thought it was Jordan. 5 thought it was Iran. 1 thought it was India. 1 thought it was Romania. 1 chose the Crimean Peninsula. 6 thought it was Afghanistan, and 1 (remarkably) selected Japan. My poll was as unscientific as the Mirror's, and I "proved" that 100% of British adults could not find Iraq on a map just as they proved that 90% of American adults could not find Iraq on a map.

In a garden center, I was selecting some plants for my garden. I commented that the lantana was native to Texas, as was the ratbida, or Mexican Hat plant. The horticulturalist scratched his head and said, "but that can't be...those plants can't survive in the desert." He thought that ALL of Texas was a desert.

I remarked to a colleague that I'd like to visit Brazil and practice my Portuguese. "You'd have a hard time doing that," he snorted. "They don't speak Portuguese in Brazil...they speak Spanish." (They don't. They speak Portuguese.)

A colleague of mine is from Chile. Someone at work once asked her what they ate in Chile besides nachos and tacos. Nachos and tacos are just as foreign to them as they are to us Americans...familiar and tasty, yet still not native cuisine.

Someone at the supermarket once asked me if we had Snickers bars in America.

A Mexican restaurant in this area of the country is called "Fiesta Mehicana." That's not a typo, nor have I misspelled the name of the establishment. I asked the owner why he misspelled "Mexicana" and he said, "Because if I didn't spell it with an 'h' these people would say 'mecksikana.'"

British diners at said restaurant were baffled by the concept of rolling their own fajitas and were very confused when, after filling a tortilla so much that they could barely roll it, they took one bite and the rest of the food fell out of the other side of the tortilla back onto the plate.

I have met British people who claim that the British invented popcorn.

3 posted on 12/04/2003 2:17:30 AM PST by Pedantic_Lady
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To: petuniasevan
Didn't hear about that particular piece of scientific brilliance...Amazing communism lasted as long as it did.
4 posted on 12/04/2003 2:29:52 AM PST by lainde
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To: petuniasevan
OK, so I weep for the level of knowledge obtained through the public education system. What I also got from the article was that science was for the elite and not subject to the little people. The mores of society can dictate the direction of the application of science. Knowledge itself is not subject to popular vote, but the application should be.
For example, gene splicing for improved crops is a mistake. While it addresses the negative effects of chemical agriculture it also decreases the diversity of the plants cultivated. The Irish Potato famine would be a good example of the danger of narrowing the diversity of a food source.
Science without the brakes of society and the direction of it's members has been a recognized danger throughout history.
5 posted on 12/04/2003 3:03:25 AM PST by IrishCatholic
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To: JohnHuang2
The issues surrounding this are a great reinforcement for the arguement for deliberative representation instead of pliebisitory delegates </I. for members of legislatures.
6 posted on 12/04/2003 3:52:55 AM PST by KC Burke
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; Piltdown_Woman; RadioAstronomer
A VIP (Very Important Ping).
7 posted on 12/04/2003 4:23:31 AM PST by Junior (Pergamentum init, exit pergamentum)
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To: *crevo_list; VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Scully; LogicWings; ...
PING. [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
8 posted on 12/04/2003 7:29:58 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Everything good that I have done, I have done at the command of my voices.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Thanks for the ping!
9 posted on 12/04/2003 7:33:13 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Pedantic_Lady
I have to admit that I have never encountered a British person who didn't know that a whale is a mammal.

I have to admit I have observed FReepers argue that humans are neither mammals nor animals.

10 posted on 12/04/2003 8:11:28 AM PST by js1138
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To: JohnHuang2
Sounds familiar.
11 posted on 12/04/2003 8:37:56 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: IrishCatholic
For example, gene splicing for improved crops is a mistake. While it addresses the negative effects of chemical agriculture it also decreases the diversity of the plants cultivated.

Our most important cultivars were all essentially monozygotic before the advent of gene splicing. How do you decrease diversity where none exists?

Science without the brakes of society and the direction of it's members has been a recognized danger throughout history.

It's certainly been treated as a danger (i.e., viewed with fear and hostility). But do you have practical examples?

12 posted on 12/04/2003 8:38:03 AM PST by Physicist
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To: js1138
A modern human may only be a chaotic vegetable.

Coleslaw
Succotash
Tossed Salad
Pico de Gallo

13 posted on 12/04/2003 8:53:26 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: farmfriend
ping
14 posted on 12/04/2003 9:01:08 AM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Pedantic_Lady
That clerk you met sounds like a potential Jay-Walking all star.

Everybody knows Orville Redenbacher invented popcorn. :)
15 posted on 12/04/2003 9:07:48 AM PST by DeepDish (Depleted uranium and democrats are a lot alike. They've both been sucked dry of anything useful)
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To: IrishCatholic; Physicist
For example, gene splicing for improved crops is a mistake. While it addresses the negative effects of chemical agriculture it also decreases the diversity of the plants cultivated. The Irish Potato famine would be a good example of the danger of narrowing the diversity of a food source.

Your example doesn't support your claim. The problem wasn't with the potato per se, but that the Irish had an essentially monocultural agricultural system - they would have had the same problem if the only crop was corn and there was an infestation of corn borers. But in either case, it's got nothing to do with the plant itself, and everything to do with the practice of relying on a single plant. Panda bears are going extinct for much the same reason - the bamboo forests they rely on are disappearing, and so are they, despite the fact that nobody to my knowledge has fiddled with the bamboo genome.

Besides, how is gene splicing supposed to differ qualitatively from selective breeding? Cabbage, kohlrabi, kale, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts and broccoli are all the same species of plant, all modifications of the rather lowly wild cabbage - would there be a real difference if those changes had been introduced over the span of three months in a lab, rather than over 2500 years of selective breeding and cultivation? Isn't diversity increasing in such a case?

16 posted on 12/04/2003 9:09:24 AM PST by general_re (Knife goes in, guts come out! That's what Osaka Food Concern is all about!)
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To: PatrickHenry
I know I'm on your virtual ignore list but I was going to ping you to this article before noting that Junior had already done so. I find it relates to what we were discussing the other day (in particular, look at comment number 5). Not that this in any way buttresses my own arguments but it does go some way toward demonstrating the "other" dynamics (read: public opinion exerting pressure on science) that are currently in the mix.
17 posted on 12/04/2003 11:08:04 AM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: JohnHuang2; AAABEST; Ace2U; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; amom; AndreaZingg; Anonymous2; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.

18 posted on 12/04/2003 6:01:52 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
BTTT!!!!!
19 posted on 12/05/2003 3:06:51 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: Pedantic_Lady
(They don't. They speak Portuguese.)

I didn't know that. Thanks for the information.

Prairie

20 posted on 12/05/2003 5:56:41 AM PST by prairiebreeze (They aren't attackers, militants, assailants, insurgents or resistors. They are THE ENEMY!!!!)
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